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New to Dust Tactics and initial thoughts


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#1 moffmalthus

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 02:31 AM

   

Hello all, Just wanted to introduce myself. Just started playing Dust Tactics after I was randomly looking through a new FFG catalogue that was packaged with Descent and saw the game listed. I tried to look in several local games stores for the game and they all either had never heard of the game or said it was not popular enough to carry in the store. So I ended up ordering it through amazon. I just have to say I think this game is great! Its such a unique setting and the rules may be a bit flawed but there easy to learn and a quick game takes an hour. So my thought is this… how come so few people have heard of such a great game? I would happily demo the game (Once I get a few more games under my belt) but I don't even see a demo program (such as you see for many games today) I think if people saw the game in action and realized the price is actually quite reasonable there would be a bunch of new people buying the game. But instead you get most people saying they haven't even heard of the game (including myself up until a few weeks ago). This game would be a great alternative to warhammer as you can get into dust warfare and be fielding an army for say $150 were you could easily drop 1k or more for a viable 40k or warhammer fantasy army. Couple that with the fact the models look very good (maybe not up to warhammer but still very good) and that you can play a game in a much shorter time and this should be one of the most successful tabletop games available today.



#2 fhaugh

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 02:48 AM

I think it's a VHS vs. Betamax situation.  Many people think Dust is a superior product, but the other guy has a much larger foothold in the market and a larger marketing budget to work with.



#3 moffmalthus

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 02:53 AM

But thats why I say if they had a viable demo program were we as players could demo the game at various game stores and cons etc… the game could take off with very little money involved. I remeber when Magic first started and no one knew what that was but they flooded every con with the game and before you knew it the game was played by everyone.  



#4 Major Mishap

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 05:11 AM

One of the main problems, well here in the UK anyway, is supply.  Stores cannot buy the stuff regualary and then items are in short supply and if they can't sell it properly then they can't sell it at all.  Also, advertising is pathetic, Dust is a wargame but they do not advertise in any wargames magazine so people do not hear about it unless they accidently run into it on a blog somewhere.  And here's how they aid shops to promote their product, wait for it…..  they charge $175 to help shops sell it!



#5 Tunnelhckrat

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 06:15 PM

I have considered getting this game but Im not totally convinced its a good idea. Id have no one to play with here and I dont know if buying another Miniatures game is worth it. Can someone list what they see as pros and cons compared to 40k and at-43?



#6 Major Mishap

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:39 AM

Pro's: DT is easy to learn, quick to play and set up and has fantastic models.  Cons, it takes forever for products to get out of the US and bendy gun barrels.



#7 moffmalthus

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 01:05 AM

    

Well I can tell you what I think, don't know if others will chime in or not but here are my 2 cents about the whole Dust universe compared to 40K (and I have played 40k since it was rogue trader back in 1991).

 

Rules: Clearly 40k has been around a lot longer is this regard so the rules for a veteran player are more polished. That being said it's much easier for a new player to learn first Dust Tactics then move up to Dust Warfare after they've collected a few mini's. A player can grasp all the basics of Dust Tactics in an hour of play. Aside from a few minor flaws the tactics rules make sense and are easy to understand. Warfare rules are also very good but I think the book should be redone so all the rules are laid out in an order that makes sense. As it is now you need to constantly flip around the book to find all the abilities for a single walker. The rules themselves are well thought out and easy to learn though.

 

Time: This is one of the greatest advantages Tactics has over 40K. I play Tactics mostly with my wife who had only ever played axis & allies before playing Tactics and after the first game we can run through a battle in an hour and sometimes less. IMO this is awesome because I can't tell you how many times I've run into a 40K game that would drag on for 5 or 6 hours easily and we would have to rush at the end because someone had to leave to go to work etc… At least in my situation with a full time job and kids etc… its very refreshing to know you can get in a gaming fix with just an hour to spare.

 

Miniatures: The 40k individual units are of a better quality than the dust equivalent. The Dust mini's look great though in there own right. In fact I'd say the sculpts are the second best (after games workshop) I've ever seen. Now if you're talking about the walkers there is no way to do them justice through pictures on the internet. IMO they are better looking and better quality than anything games workshop puts out for tanks etc… You need to see one for yourself up close to understand, the attention to detail is simply amazing.

 

Cost: This is no contest. Dust wins this hands down. If you buy the revised core set and a couple of expansions for the axis and allies on amazon you will only spend maybe just over $100 total and have two good sized armies with about 25 models on each side including at least 2 walkers. This would even get you started on dust warfare. Even if you just get the revised core set and nothing else you will have plenty to get started and play through several games without adding a single model. Now what could you buy in 40k for $100? Hmmm…. the rulebook and a single squad… oops… in my experience to even field a competitive 40k army you're going to drop at least a thousand dollars.

 

Now I'm not saying you should replace 40k with Tactics but rather supplement your gaming with it. 40K is a great (though prohibitively expensive) hobby. Tactics will allow you into the hobby for a fraction of the price. I know you said you would have no one to play with. I would suggest you get the people you play 40k with to try it. Better yet bring it to an open gaming night at your local gaming store and see if you can get some people to try it out. Most people I've seen who even try Tactics once love it. It's just a matter of getting them to try it.

     



#8 xBeakeRx

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 02:45 AM

Tunnelhckrat said:

I have considered getting this game but Im not totally convinced its a good idea. Id have no one to play with here and I dont know if buying another Miniatures game is worth it. Can someone list what they see as pros and cons compared to 40k and at-43?

 

I've played 40k for quite a while, my friend and I first started playing around 15 years ago.  I've collected a few different armies over the years:  started off with Necrons, eventually started a Chaos Space Marine army, and finally I started Imperial Guard as my third army.  As of now, I have sold off my Necrons and Imperial Guard, and I currently have my Chaos Space Marine Khorne army on eBay.  It saddens me to have put it up yesterday considering its almost completely painted/based to a high standard, but the fact is I just never play it anymore.  The models just sit in boxes collecting dust.

 

The reason why I dont play anymore is I find Dust Tactics/Warfare and some of the other miniatures games to be far superior in almost every facet.  The only real advantage Games Workshop has over Dust is the higher detail quality of their models, but considering that you pay a much higher price for those models is it really worth it?

 

For around $200 you can build an amazing Dust Tactics/Warfare army.  What will $200 buy you if you're looking to start a Warhammer army?  You can buy the core rulebook, your armies rulebook, and maybe 2 boxes of miniatures consisting of around 200-500 points (depending on the models/army you buy).  200-500 points in the Warhammer world is nothing, you'll need around a $1000 investment in models to field anything competitive.  

 

Time is another issue I have always had with Warhammer.  It simply takes too long to play a game.  The rulebook is jampacked with endless rules, so much so that you get into several arguments during a game with some rules-nazi (I apologize if "nazi" offends anyone) about some vague rule hidden within the 300-page rulebook.  Then before you know it, your legs and back are throbbing because you've been standing up for the past 5 hours to play a game that you haven't even enjoyed because you realized you lost on turn one when you saw his Grey Knights setting up across the battlefield.

 

Which brings me to…BALANCE!  Warhammer armies are completely unbalanced.  There are definite and distinct army tiers that set the standard for powergamers.  If you want to play in tournaments competitively, you know you'll have to play one of these handfull or armies.  If you own something else, sorry, but you will not win.  You may beat someone playing Witch Hunters in round one, but you wont make it far.  Eventually the Grey Knights, Space Wolves, or leafblowing Imperial Guard will eat your army up.

 

So, if this was TLDR: Dust is a more balanced, cost effective, time conscious, friendlier game in which you dont have to spend a huge amount of money to enjoy.  It also has a great theme, the Weird War II pulp fiction style is amazing…and there are SUPERHEROES!



#9 Miah999

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 04:57 AM

xBeakeRx said:

Tunnelhckrat said:

…So, if this was TLDR: Dust is a more balanced, cost effective, time conscious, friendlier game in which you dont have to spend a huge amount of money to enjoy.  It also has a great theme, the Weird War II pulp fiction style is amazing…and there are SUPERHEROES!

I agree completly I played 40K a couple times with a borrowed Ultra Marine army, and didn't enjoy it at all. I was hesitant to pick up DT due to the previous bad mini gaming experiences (AT 43 was a better game then 40K, but it had other issues). Then I read the rules for DT, and while they have their occasional flaws, they're just so light. after less then an hour of reading I felt I could win a game DT. After a day of reading and rereading the Ultra's codex, I still don't understand half of it.

And to again maention balence; there are single units that in 40K can bring down an entire army if its facing an army not put together usign just the right combo of "spam and cheese." But even DT's Superhumans still are vunerable enough to have their counters even in a smaller "cheaper" army.

But that's all just my opinon.



#10 xBeakeRx

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:12 AM

Miah999 said:

xBeakeRx said:

 

Tunnelhckrat said:

…So, if this was TLDR: Dust is a more balanced, cost effective, time conscious, friendlier game in which you dont have to spend a huge amount of money to enjoy.  It also has a great theme, the Weird War II pulp fiction style is amazing…and there are SUPERHEROES!

 

 

I agree completly I played 40K a couple times with a borrowed Ultra Marine army, and didn't enjoy it at all. I was hesitant to pick up DT due to the previous bad mini gaming experiences (AT 43 was a better game then 40K, but it had other issues). Then I read the rules for DT, and while they have their occasional flaws, they're just so light. after less then an hour of reading I felt I could win a game DT. After a day of reading and rereading the Ultra's codex, I still don't understand half of it.

And to again maention balence; there are single units that in 40K can bring down an entire army if its facing an army not put together usign just the right combo of "spam and cheese." But even DT's Superhumans still are vunerable enough to have their counters even in a smaller "cheaper" army.

But that's all just my opinon.

No, you're dead on.  Some of the models in the 40k range are just ridiculously imbalanced.  Not to mention 80% of players play some sort of "marine" army and it's just boring.

 

You're right one about DT's superhumans too.  I recently played my first games with Winter Child and while he was great during some games, if not supported correctly he can be taken down without too much trouble.  My friend plays an allied army and he uses Rattler, Wildfire, Steel Rain, Tank Busters, and 3 squads of Grim Reapers.  I play a more "air-mobile" style SSU force using multiple helicopters so its very difficult to fight against his army, even with Winter Child in there.



#11 fhaugh

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:37 PM

 What’s the difference between Dust and 40k?  To quote Dennis Miller, “I don’t want go off on a rant here but…” 

Looking at the minis you can see that they are more realistic, far less gothic, and have better proportions.  The average Joe shouldn’t look like a body builder with elephantitis of the head.  The weapons, while larger than true scale would be, are only large enough to provide detail and durability.  The normal tank gun isn’t the size of a battleships main gun.

The rules for Dust:Tactics are far simpler than 40k but still retain enough realism to allow a good level of strategy and tactics without bogging down gameplay.  40k’s rules were based on a Civil War miniatures game and you can see it.  That is why close combat is so important in that game.  It was based on a war where the average rifle was 4-5ft long and there was no way to reload it and fire at somebody that was in your face.  Why should the same rules apply to someone using a fully automatic sub-machine gun?  Also, the alternating activations means that you can’t lose half your force before they’ve even had a chance to fire.  The basic rules aside, GW has a very good marketing strategy in that each new force list will change the rules a little bit.  Or at least change the meta-game and force people to modify their force build to stay competitive.  Either way, the players are forced to by new books and minis every few months to stay competitive.  The force build lists, while having a basis in reality, are also an effective way you force the players to buy minis that they don’t really want.  Tactics has no force build lists.  If you want to field nothing but Zombies, or the Allied jump infantry, go for it.

GW’s attitude towards its customers when it comes to pricing is my biggest problem with 40k.  They seem to have the attitude that we will pay whatever they want to charge because we have no choice.  In many cities/area’s they are right.  Nobody is playing any other games, so if you want to play, you have to pay the GW way.  And the GW way is to charge you not based on the quality or quantity or minis in the box, but on how important that unit is to your force.  This unit of marines is $30 but this unit of VETERAN marines is $45 because you get one small sprue of bits to make the marines veteran.  10% more plastic in the box does not equal a 50% price increase.  The GW kits are also very inflexible.  When you build one of their tank you have to decide if it will have weapon A,B, or C when you build it and, unless you have some good modeling skills, you can’t change it later.  With Dust, not only can you change it, they give you the parts you need for several variants.  If you buy the Allied medium walker you get the pieces to make all 4 variants!  And for almost half the price you would pay for a similar model from GW!






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