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Lair of the Wyrm and Assorted Questions


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#1 Deathseed

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:02 AM

So we've played three games since I got Descent last week, and have had great fun, made some mistakes along the way, and encountered a handful of rules questions as we've done it.

First one that is of most immediate concern is, do the Lair of the Wyrm quests such as Gold Digger, Rude Awakening, and What's Yours Is Mine award one xp per player at completion?

Unlike the Shadow Rune quests, those quests don't specifically mention an xp reward in their reward block. However the main rulebook, page 20, step 3: Receive Rewards makes it sound like 1 xp is always rewarded upon completion of a quest.

Admittedly the way the main rulebook and quest guide is written, we almost thought players were getting two xp per Shadow Rune quest, but we came to our senses after some quick math.

 

Next is a monster question: Master Cave Spider - Web: Do heroes have to pay one fatigue to move out of each and every square adjacent to the Master Cave Spider during their movement?

For example a character attempting to run past a Master Cave Spider in a two square wide corridor (a hallway for instance) would end up paying a total of three fatigue to travel through the three squares adjacent to the spider in order to get completely past it.

Is that correct?

 

And one more monster question, this one we think we've already worked out via the FAQ, rulebook, and forum, but we'll restate it here for feedback. Flame Breath (and similar powers). As we understand things, it can trace its path around corners and through obstacles like boulders (but not doors) because LOS is irrelevant to it since it is not implicitly stated to require it and it's not actually moving in such a way that obstacles would impeded it.

Correct?


You think you've got problems. What are you supposed to do if you are a manically depressed robot? No, don't even bother answering. I'm 50,000 times more intelligent than you, and even I don't know the answer.


#2 Rico

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 06:11 AM

No. The LotW rewards are listed per each quest. No XP is awarded.

Yes. You must test both on leaving each space.

This would be a good question for the FAQ. There is nothing that I am aware of regarding Fire Breath as it pertains to LoS and obsticles. Your logic sounds reasonable.



#3 Triu

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 06:12 AM

Deathseed said:

And one more monster question, this one we think we've already worked out via the FAQ, rulebook, and forum, but we'll restate it here for feedback. Flame Breath (and similar powers). As we understand things, it can trace its path around corners and through obstacles like boulders (but not doors) because LOS is irrelevant to it since it is not implicitly stated to require it and it's not actually moving in such a way that obstacles would impeded it.

 

LOS isn't required, so you can shoot around corners, but I'm not sure about the obstacles …

"When counting spaces for attacks and abilities, players ignore any non-obstacle terrain in those spaces"



#4 Deathseed

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 06:49 AM

Triu said:

Deathseed said:

And one more monster question, this one we think we've already worked out via the FAQ, rulebook, and forum, but we'll restate it here for feedback. Flame Breath (and similar powers). As we understand things, it can trace its path around corners and through obstacles like boulders (but not doors) because LOS is irrelevant to it since it is not implicitly stated to require it and it's not actually moving in such a way that obstacles would impeded it.

 

LOS isn't required, so you can shoot around corners, but I'm not sure about the obstacles …

"When counting spaces for attacks and abilities, players ignore any non-obstacle terrain in those spaces"

Yeah, that's the part in the rulebook that had us wondering too.


You think you've got problems. What are you supposed to do if you are a manically depressed robot? No, don't even bother answering. I'm 50,000 times more intelligent than you, and even I don't know the answer.


#5 Deathseed

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 06:50 AM

Rico said:

No. The LotW rewards are listed per each quest. No XP is awarded.

Yes. You must test both on leaving each space.

This would be a good question for the FAQ. There is nothing that I am aware of regarding Fire Breath as it pertains to LoS and obsticles. Your logic sounds reasonable.

That's harsh if correct. It makes the Wrym quests very much an all or nothing affair.


You think you've got problems. What are you supposed to do if you are a manically depressed robot? No, don't even bother answering. I'm 50,000 times more intelligent than you, and even I don't know the answer.


#6 Rico

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 07:28 AM

If you want to gain XP with LotW you can run a mini-campaign:

http://www.fantasyfl...paign_Rules.pdf

Otherwise, you are simply extending a campaign via the rumor cards. Page 8 of the LotW rule book covers the details.



#7 Deathseed

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 07:37 AM

Rico said:

If you want to gain XP with LotW you can run a mini-campaign:

http://www.fantasyfl...paign_Rules.pdf

Otherwise, you are simply extending a campaign via the rumor cards. Page 8 of the LotW rule book covers the details.

Yeah I get that part. It just seemed odd to us that the rulebook implies xp gain is a part of the normal Campaign Phase steps (during step three), but some of the Wyrm quests indicate no xp award. I suppose the fine print is in the parenthetical statement in the rulebook (pg. 20) for step three that indicates "(as listed in the quest guide)". So I guess where the Shadow Vault is concerned they were just emphasizing/reiterating that the quest guide lists the xp rewards.


You think you've got problems. What are you supposed to do if you are a manically depressed robot? No, don't even bother answering. I'm 50,000 times more intelligent than you, and even I don't know the answer.


#8 Deathseed

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 07:40 AM

Triu said:

Deathseed said:

And one more monster question, this one we think we've already worked out via the FAQ, rulebook, and forum, but we'll restate it here for feedback. Flame Breath (and similar powers). As we understand things, it can trace its path around corners and through obstacles like boulders (but not doors) because LOS is irrelevant to it since it is not implicitly stated to require it and it's not actually moving in such a way that obstacles would impeded it.

 

LOS isn't required, so you can shoot around corners, but I'm not sure about the obstacles …

"When counting spaces for attacks and abilities, players ignore any non-obstacle terrain in those spaces"

Also on further review, that paragraph then refers to page 18 for rules on terrain and obstacles, but obstacles on page 18 then state that they block LOS and movement.

However firebreath indicates no requirement for LOS (consistent with the rules for counting spaces), nor is it actually "moving" as characters and monsters do, so that creates a grey area.


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#9 Steve-O

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 03:16 AM

Deathseed said:

Yeah I get that part. It just seemed odd to us that the rulebook implies xp gain is a part of the normal Campaign Phase steps (during step three), but some of the Wyrm quests indicate no xp award. I suppose the fine print is in the parenthetical statement in the rulebook (pg. 20) for step three that indicates "(as listed in the quest guide)". So I guess where the Shadow Vault is concerned they were just emphasizing/reiterating that the quest guide lists the xp rewards.

This seems like a classic case of FFG only writing rules with the current scope of the game in mind.  ie: Every quest in the Shadow Rune awards all players 1 XP, win or lose, so they wrote in the rulebook that players always get 1 XP after each quest.  Then an expansion comes along that breaks that rule and chaos ensues.

For a company that routinely makes expansions for the better-selling game lines, you'd think they would have learned not to make those sorts of assumptions, but I guess nobody's perfect.

Deathseed said:

Also on further review, that paragraph then refers to page 18 for rules on terrain and obstacles, but obstacles on page 18 then state that they block LOS and movement.

However firebreath indicates no requirement for LOS (consistent with the rules for counting spaces), nor is it actually "moving" as characters and monsters do, so that creates a grey area.

The way I understand the rules, "counting spaces" is supposed to be treated like "moving a figure," except that you ignore all figures and all terrain other than obstacles with regards to how you "move."  Thus, when tracing a path for Fire Breath and the like, you would have to go around anything that is treated like an Obstacle.  In my personal experience, this is seldom a huge limitation, since you can still cut between two obstacles that only touch on a corner.

That said, I would also be fine with playing the interpretation that Fire Breath and such can move directly through obstacles.  There can't be an enemy figure in that space, but if you want to go through it, fine.  Thematically, I can accept fire billowing around a boulder to burn something on the other side.



#10 Triu

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 07:47 AM

Steve-O said:

That said, I would also be fine with playing the interpretation that Fire Breath and such can move directly through obstacles.  There can't be an enemy figure in that space, but if you want to go through it, fine.  Thematically, I can accept fire billowing around a boulder to burn something on the other side.

That is making assumptions about the nature of the obstacle.  On tile 7A, the obstacle terrain forms the "doorway".  Allowing Fire Breath to go through obstacle terrain would allow you to circumvent a closed door.  I think, for simplicity, obstacles are meant to be impassable for all purposes.



#11 Steve-O

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 11:16 AM

Triu said:

That is making assumptions about the nature of the obstacle.  On tile 7A, the obstacle terrain forms the "doorway".  Allowing Fire Breath to go through obstacle terrain would allow you to circumvent a closed door.  I think, for simplicity, obstacles are meant to be impassable for all purposes.

Yeah, well, like I said, I prefer it the other way.  My point in that part was just that I could see thematic arguements for the other interpretation, if people really want to play it that way.

As for what the obstacle represents, I'd rather not rule that sort of thing on a case-by-case basis.  That just gets wearisome.  It either can go through all obstacle spaces or it can't go through any.



#12 Deathseed

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:43 AM

The official answers as provided to me by FFG staff:

1) The Lair of the Wyrm quests do not award any XP if they're played in a full campaign as rumors, mostly because adding too much extra XP could cause unfortunate math issues (as you clearly saw). They do, however, award XP if played as a mini campaign (rules are online if you hadn't seen them).
 
2) Yes. Any time a hero moves out of a space adjacent to the master cave spider, he has to suffer 1 fatigue. The master can block up travel paths pretty well like this, as a hero could suffer a lot of fatigue moving past it.
 
3) Yes. Flame breath doesn't need to be traced in a straight line or follow LoS rules.

You think you've got problems. What are you supposed to do if you are a manically depressed robot? No, don't even bother answering. I'm 50,000 times more intelligent than you, and even I don't know the answer.


#13 heynow69

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:04 PM

Hi all,

Just a question on reinforcements in the expansion. If this section does not say "..respecting group limits", as in "whats yours is Mine", is it unlimited the amount of monsters per group that can enter at the end of each overlords turn?

 

Thanks!

Doug



#14 Steve-O

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:20 PM

heynow69 said:

Just a question on reinforcements in the expansion. If this section does not say "..respecting group limits", as in "whats yours is Mine", is it unlimited the amount of monsters per group that can enter at the end of each overlords turn?

If the Overlord is not required to respect group limits then I would say he is at the very least limited to the number of figures that come with the game…  Which boils down to the group limit in a 4 hero game. =P

Of course, if you really want to be a rules-lawyering jerk (and you have 1E + CK) you could pick something like Bane Spiders for your open group and go nuts on the reinforcements =P



#15 Rico

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:53 PM

heynow69 said:

 

Hi all,

Just a question on reinforcements in the expansion. If this section does not say "..respecting group limits", as in "whats yours is Mine", is it unlimited the amount of monsters per group that can enter at the end of each overlords turn?

 

Thanks!

Doug

 

 

I believe the original Quest Guide states: 

"Unless specifically noted otherwise, the overlord can never add a monster to the map in excess of the monster group limit (size and composition allowed by the number of heroes listed on the back of that Monster card)."

Also, I believe you mean to ask if the reinforcements can keep entering every turn regardless of max group size. I don't know of any quest that allows more than one of any monster group to enter per overlord turn.



#16 heynow69

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:29 PM

Great, thanks for the response!






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