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Ambush from the plains


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#1 LFenix

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 11:02 PM

Can you use this card to get a copy of a character already in play? I would say no, since playing a dupe is not considered playing a character, but a friend of mine insists that he can because the character is a character until it enters play, when it becomes a dupe. He even says that since the character you played is now a dupe and not a character, it is no longer in play and so he doesn´t have totake it back to his hand, wich makes no sense to me.



#2 stormwolf27

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:35 AM

LFenix said:

Can you use this card to get a copy of a character already in play? I would say no, since playing a dupe is not considered playing a character, but a friend of mine insists that he can because the character is a character until it enters play, when it becomes a dupe. He even says that since the character you played is now a dupe and not a character, it is no longer in play and so he doesn´t have totake it back to his hand, wich makes no sense to me.

Honestly, from the wording of the card, I'm not sure. The put into play from hand or discard would work for the dupe for the reason your friend said (read how the Martell event "No use for Grief" works, or using Core set Rhaegal's ability to search for and attach Knight of the Red Fork as a dupe). However, I don't know for sure on the return to hand text, though. Your friend seems to have the right of it there, but I can't say as this situation has come up before in my meta, so I couldn't say.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#3 LFenix

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 02:33 AM

stormwolf27 said:

LFenix said:

 

Can you use this card to get a copy of a character already in play? I would say no, since playing a dupe is not considered playing a character, but a friend of mine insists that he can because the character is a character until it enters play, when it becomes a dupe. He even says that since the character you played is now a dupe and not a character, it is no longer in play and so he doesn´t have totake it back to his hand, wich makes no sense to me.

 

 

Honestly, from the wording of the card, I'm not sure. The put into play from hand or discard would work for the dupe for the reason your friend said (read how the Martell event "No use for Grief" works, or using Core set Rhaegal's ability to search for and attach Knight of the Red Fork as a dupe). However, I don't know for sure on the return to hand text, though. Your friend seems to have the right of it there, but I can't say as this situation has come up before in my meta, so I couldn't say.

 

Riders of the red fork is a different case. It says you can look for them whenever you are looking for anything. You can´t put them as a dupe, since that would be illegal though. never heard about a card being the dupe of a different unique char.

And about No use for Grief… I´d say you can´t put dupes with it, since playing a dupe is not considered playing a char. I´ve been looking for the errata and clarification and nothing is said there.

 

but from what you are saying, plaing a dupe would count then towards the "when you play a targaryen char" from Daenerys´ chambers, wich seems a bit nonsense to me…



#4 ktom

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 02:58 AM

You may use "put into play" effects (like Ambush from the Plains) to put a second copy of a unique character into play. The second copy will enter play as a dupe on the first. The Shadow rules explains how this works - and it does indeed work for any "put into play" effect, not just for bringing cards out of Shadows. Always has.

You are not playing a dupe (or a character) when you do this. You are putting it into play. No matter what character you use Ambush from the Plains to get into play, you are not going to be able to use Lady Dany's Chambers because you didn't play anything.

And yes, since dupes are titleless, traitless, textless, and crest-less, when it comes time to return the "character" to your hand, the "character" is not in play. It's a "loophole" in that effect, and it's just one of the advantages of unique cards.



#5 LFenix

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:57 AM

Well, what sounds strange to me is that you can put into play a dupe with a "put into play a character". So, when you PLAY a dupe while marshalling from your hand, it is just like PLAING a char? (that´s what I meant with Dany´s chambers. Not using it with ambush, but using it with normal dupes, since you actually play them)

 

The simil with shadow cards, I don´t understand it. Maybe it is a mistake with the translation (I am Spanish), but I understand that cards that you take out of shadows are NOT PUT INTO PLAY. It says they exit shadows and ENTER PLAY, wich is different according to the FAQ.

 

Sorry to ask so much about it but I still don´t understand it and it makes a huge difference in our meta.

 

Thanks for your time, hope you can waste a little more to solve my doubt ;)



#6 ktom

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 08:49 AM

LFenix said:

Well, what sounds strange to me is that you can put into play a dupe with a "put into play a character".
I'm not sure why this is weird for you. It's not like as soon as you play Robb Stark, all other copies of him in your hand, deck, discard pile, etc. magically change their card type from "character" to "duplicate." It's still a character card. "Duplicate" as a card type doesn't mean anything until the card enters play.

LFenix said:

So, when you PLAY a dupe while marshalling from your hand, it is just like PLAING a char? (that´s what I meant with Dany´s chambers. Not using it with ambush, but using it with normal dupes, since you actually play them)
No. Because you are not paying the costs, etc. of the character. You are using a specific rule that lets you "play" cards with specific characteristics in a specific way. But ultimately, the fact that you are considered to have played a duplicate, not a character comes from the definition of the duplicate, but also from the fact that when you trigger a Response, you look at the current state of the board. So just like playing a 2-STR Stark character when Winterfell Castle is out lets you use "after you play a 3-STR character" effects, you Respond to playing a duplicate because that's what the card is by the time any passives or Responses would take place.

LFenix said:

The simil with shadow cards, I don´t understand it. Maybe it is a mistake with the translation (I am Spanish), but I understand that cards that you take out of shadows are NOT PUT INTO PLAY. It says they exit shadows and ENTER PLAY, wich is different according to the FAQ.
The card that comes out of Shadows "enters play," but the effect that moved the card from Shadows (an out-of-play area) and into play "put the card into play." So bringing a card out of shadows is a "put into play" effect that results, as all "put into play" effects do, with a card entering play.

Don't confuse the bow with the arrow, so to speak.  Effectively, there is no such thing as an "enters play" effect - because the effects themselves never enter play. Effects that take a card from an out-of-play area and have that card end up in play are either "play" effects or "put into play" effects. BOTH types of effects result in a card entering play or coming into play. (The FAQ only says that "play" and "put into play" are different - not that "enters play" is different from those two because "enters play" views the sequence from the point of view of the card entering play, not from the point of view of the effect that is moving it.)

The thing to remember is that the rules for unique cards in the FAQ says that you cannot "play, put into play, or take control of a unique card already in play that you own or control (except for putting a duplicate on a card that you own and control), or that is in your dead pile." So obviously "put into play" effects can lead to the "duplicate exception" to the unique rule. 

 

LFenix said:

Sorry to ask so much about it but I still don´t understand it and it makes a huge difference in our meta.
And I'm sorry if I seem frustrated by the question. It's just that the rule "'Put into play' effects can be used to duplicate unique cards" has been part of the game from Day 1. In the very first CCG set (2002?), there was a plot card called "Reinforcements" which had the text: "When revealed, you may choose a character with cost 3 or lower from your discard pile and put it into play at no cost." There was a clarification on this card in one of the first FAQs, which is still part of the Legacy FAQ, which reads: "Reinforcements should read: 'When revealed, you may choose a character with a printed cost of 3 or lower from your discard pile and put it into play." Therefore, you may not reinforce duplicates of cost 4 or higher, but you may reinforce characters of opposing Houses without any gold penalty."

That entry makes it pretty clear that a "put into play" effect can be used to take a character card out of an out-of-play area (like the discard pile) and have it enter play as a duplicate on a copy of a unique character that is already in play.



#7 LFenix

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 11:49 PM

Thanks a lot mate. Maybe the thing is that since reinforcements don´t show up in our meta, I didn´t know about that faq. I play the game since last month or so, and is only 2 weeks that I have been "studying" to get the final point of difficult situations that show up when we play, so I still haven´t checked all card clarifications, just the ones that affect our meta ;)

 

Again thanks for the time you invested in explaining this matter fully. You enlighted me now ;)



#8 stormwolf27

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 07:51 AM

LFenix said:

LFenix said:

Riders of the red fork is a different case. It says you can look for them whenever you are looking for anything. You can´t put them as a dupe, since that would be illegal though. never heard about a card being the dupe of a different unique char.

And about No use for Grief… I´d say you can´t put dupes with it, since playing a dupe is not considered playing a char. I´ve been looking for the errata and clarification and nothing is said there.

 

but from what you are saying, plaing a dupe would count then towards the "when you play a targaryen char" from Daenerys´ chambers, wich seems a bit nonsense to me…

Because Riders is a dupe for the purposes of the search, and Rhaegal's ability lets you immediately attach said dupe to him, it works, because Riders doesn't gain its own text back till it's already attached, and, as a dupe, loses all text, traits, etc. To see this in action, see the Gen Con Melee finals.

No Use allows you to get dupes in the same way that, if you pay the extra gold cost, you can put a second copy of a unique during setup (to have a dupe of Samwell Tarly before first turn it costs you 2 setup gold). As soon as the second copy enters play, it becomes a dupe of the first.

And ktom already answered about the Dany's Chambers effect.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#9 LFenix

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 08:51 AM

Hum, I see. Well that proves I have a lot to learn about this game yet. Seems as if learning the mechanics never ends, hehe.

 

Thanks a lot to both. I really apreciate it.



#10 Khudzlin

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 07:13 PM

@Stormwolf27: the rules are clear that you cannot place duplicates of cards during setup. It's in the rulebook, in the explanation of how the game flows.

6. Place setup cards
The first player places his setup cards first, followed by other players in clockwise order. When placing your setup cards, you may place up to 5 gold worth of characters and/or location cards from your hand facedown in front of you. You may not place attachments during this step unless they include the “Setup” keyword in their game text; your setup must also include valid targets for such attachments. You may only place one card with the “Limited” keyword during this step and you may not place duplicates of unique cards (see page 15). Cards affiliated with a different House (than the House you are playing) cost 2 additional gold to play (this is called a gold penalty, see page 11). After all players have placed their setup cards in front of them, all the
cards are simultaneously revealed.



#11 BakaKitty

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 07:23 PM

Since we're on the topic of Ambush from the Plains, can we ambush in cards with the Shadow Crest, assuming {Cost + 2} is lower than my initiative. 



#12 Khudzlin

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:18 AM

Indeed you can. Everywhere you need the (printed) cost of a card, a shadow card's is the number + 2. and, while shadow cards may only be marshalled into shadows, this restriction has no bearing on putting cards into play (which is what Ambush from the Plains does).



#13 stormwolf27

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 03:37 PM

Khudzlin said:

@Stormwolf27: the rules are clear that you cannot place duplicates of cards during setup. It's in the rulebook, in the explanation of how the game flows.

6. Place setup cards
The first player places his setup cards first, followed by other players in clockwise order. When placing your setup cards, you may place up to 5 gold worth of characters and/or location cards from your hand facedown in front of you. You may not place attachments during this step unless they include the “Setup” keyword in their game text; your setup must also include valid targets for such attachments. You may only place one card with the “Limited” keyword during this step and you may not place duplicates of unique cards (see page 15). Cards affiliated with a different House (than the House you are playing) cost 2 additional gold to play (this is called a gold penalty, see page 11). After all players have placed their setup cards in front of them, all the
cards are simultaneously revealed.

You are not placing a duplicate in this instance. You are placing another copy of the same card, paying the gold cost again.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#14 stormwolf27

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 03:40 PM

stormwolf27 said:

Khudzlin said:

 

@Stormwolf27: the rules are clear that you cannot place duplicates of cards during setup. It's in the rulebook, in the explanation of how the game flows.

6. Place setup cards
The first player places his setup cards first, followed by other players in clockwise order. When placing your setup cards, you may place up to 5 gold worth of characters and/or location cards from your hand facedown in front of you. You may not place attachments during this step unless they include the “Setup” keyword in their game text; your setup must also include valid targets for such attachments. You may only place one card with the “Limited” keyword during this step and you may not place duplicates of unique cards (see page 15). Cards affiliated with a different House (than the House you are playing) cost 2 additional gold to play (this is called a gold penalty, see page 11). After all players have placed their setup cards in front of them, all the
cards are simultaneously revealed.

 

 

You are not placing a duplicate in this instance. You are placing another copy of the same card, paying the gold cost again.

Oops. stupid laptop pad. Accidentally posted before clarifying the rest of the statement.

 

After paying 2 "setup" gold (1 gold for Sam Tarly copy 1, 1 gold for Sam Tarly copy 2), and whatever else you're placing, you reveal setup. As soon as more than one copy of a unique enter play, you designate one as the character, and the other becomes a duplicate and is attached as such.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#15 ktom

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 05:03 PM

stormwolf27 said:

After paying 2 "setup" gold (1 gold for Sam Tarly copy 1, 1 gold for Sam Tarly copy 2), and whatever else you're placing, you reveal setup. As soon as more than one copy of a unique enter play, you designate one as the character, and the other becomes a duplicate and is attached as such.
I'm really lost here. Are you really arguing that "you may not place duplicates of unique cards" in the Setup rules doesn't mean "no dupes during Setup"?

Your reasoning kind of falls apart in two ways to me:

1. There is no difference between "placing" setup cards and "paying 'setup' gold" for setup cards. They are the same thing. So your example of "paying" for two separate copies of Sam Tarly during Setup would be considered the same thing as "placing" 2 copies of Sam Tarly - something that is pretty clearly prohibited.

2. You have to consider the entire phrase "duplicates of unique cards." In that phrase, the word "duplicate" carries the plain meaning of "copy" rather than the game meaning of "a textless, titleless, traitless, crestless card that can be discarded to save the card it is on from leaving play." This is because "dupes" in those terms have no real meaning until they are in play - which they would not be until the cards you place during Setup are revealed.

 

So, when taken in full context, it seems pretty clear that "you may not place duplicates of unique cards" from the Setup rules means "no more than 1 copy of any unique card may be placed during Setup." That transcends any cost consideration.



#16 stormwolf27

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 06:14 PM

ktom said:

stormwolf27 said:

After paying 2 "setup" gold (1 gold for Sam Tarly copy 1, 1 gold for Sam Tarly copy 2), and whatever else you're placing, you reveal setup. As soon as more than one copy of a unique enter play, you designate one as the character, and the other becomes a duplicate and is attached as such.

I'm really lost here. Are you really arguing that "you may not place duplicates of unique cards" in the Setup rules doesn't mean "no dupes during Setup"?

 

Your reasoning kind of falls apart in two ways to me:

1. There is no difference between "placing" setup cards and "paying 'setup' gold" for setup cards. They are the same thing. So your example of "paying" for two separate copies of Sam Tarly during Setup would be considered the same thing as "placing" 2 copies of Sam Tarly - something that is pretty clearly prohibited.

2. You have to consider the entire phrase "duplicates of unique cards." In that phrase, the word "duplicate" carries the plain meaning of "copy" rather than the game meaning of "a textless, titleless, traitless, crestless card that can be discarded to save the card it is on from leaving play." This is because "dupes" in those terms have no real meaning until they are in play - which they would not be until the cards you place during Setup are revealed.

 

So, when taken in full context, it seems pretty clear that "you may not place duplicates of unique cards" from the Setup rules means "no more than 1 copy of any unique card may be placed during Setup." That transcends any cost consideration.

Ok. My bad, then. Setup argument averted. I can admit when I'm wrong, provided it can be proven so (I already submitted a question to the FFG email before your post, but I'll defer to you in this for the time being, unless the response email says differently).

What's your take then on dupes from No Use for Grief, then? As I understand it, it should work, since you're searching for all sand snakes and "putting in play" all found characters, and I've seen no valid argument against it… yet.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#17 Khudzlin

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 06:38 PM

He did say (in another thread I'm too lazy too look for this morning), that "put into play" effects can be used with copies of unique cards in play or multiples copies of unique cards. The setup rule has obviously no bearing there, the duping rules don't forbid it (the control/ownership/dead pile restrictions can, though), and in that case, extra copies do become dupes.



#18 ktom

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:11 AM

stormwolf27 said:

What's your take then on dupes from No Use for Grief, then? As I understand it, it should work, since you're searching for all sand snakes and "putting in play" all found characters, and I've seen no valid argument against it… yet.
No Use for Grief can put Sand Snakes into play duped if you have multiple copies of them in your deck when triggering the event. The fact that you are putting the "original" and the "dupe" into play with the same effect doesn't change the underlying practice/rule of "'put into play' effects can be used to duplicate unique characters."

This whole thread is pretty entertaining to us old-timers because people are arguing concepts/cards/effects that were settled long ago. The lack of clarity in some of the answers may simply be from the fact that this whole "put into play"/dupe thing is so ingrained, people don't really think about it.



#19 mdc273

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 07:34 AM

ktom said:

This whole thread is pretty entertaining to us old-timers because people are arguing concepts/cards/effects that were settled long ago. The lack of clarity in some of the answers may simply be from the fact that this whole "put into play"/dupe thing is so ingrained, people don't really think about it.

It probably has more to do with them not reprinting the core set with the damn FAQ in it… Or did they do that? Why haven't they edited the rulebook. It's silly.






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