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Issues With Additional Equipment


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#1 Frankie

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:21 AM

Anyone else think this doesn't make much sense? Some points:

  • Compared to at least DH, they raised the availability of Stub Autos from Plentiful to Average. Stub Autos as a side arm are eight points versus a Laspistol for five points. This is very bad if your Regiment has SP weapon training and not Las. Laspistols have -1 damage and -1 RoF (2 vs 3). But they have over x3 the Clip (30 vs 9) and reload for twice as long (Half vs Full).
  • It's essentially 10 points to replace a Laspistol with a Lasgun. I have no idea if that's me misreading it, or RAW/I. First you have to spend 5 for the carbine, then 5 for the Lasgun, even though both weapons are roughly equal.
  • Autogun isn't listed as a Main Weapon option.
  • Shotguns are 10 points. Why? It's eight points for an Average item. Shotguns have Scatter, but Lasguns have Clip, Range, RoF and even Damage/Pen if you take in Variable.
  • There's no options for additional Clips, or how much you'd get?

 

Stub Autos should be made 5 points and reduced to Common or Plentiful.  It should only take 5 points (or less, since both are Common) to replace a Laspistol with a Lasgun, Autogun, Lascarbine, etc. Replacing a Lasgun with a Shotgun really shouldn't be so expensive since there's plenty of downsides. Technically, it'd be slightly cheaper to just get an additional Shotgun. But with how it is now, most GMs would just see that as being 'sneaky'.



#2 Rapier

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:06 AM

Shotgun is way more versatile than lasgun due to different ammo. 



#3 KommissarK

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:24 AM

Given regiment creation is very much a group effort, a GM should be able to use whats in the book to take certain goals/ideas into consideration.

That said, getting a sidearm is fairly significant; a very large portion of IG regiments do not have that luxury.

Still, at the end of the day, upgrading the regiments armour to best craftsmanship is still an insanely cheap and effective strategy. Its basically spoiled me and my gaming group to the idea of taking anything else in the system. Its just so effective that it can never be taken off the table as an option.



#4 Plushy

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:22 PM

They didn't add autoguns as a standard weapon option? That's dissapointing.


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#5 Frankie

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:55 AM

I can understand that, but please understand that a Laspistol is cheaper than a Stub Automatic despite being superior to it. This is bad for a regiment that doesn't use Las weapons, but SP weapons.

 

If you boosted things by craftsmanship, doesn't that just up availability? Oh, it would be cheaper I guess.

 

Yeah, I guess it should be taken as a guideline since the "Add an item' option does not distinguish between whether it's a piece of armor, weapon, tool or wargear.



#6 MILLANDSON

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:31 AM

Frankie said:

I can understand that, but please understand that a Laspistol is cheaper than a Stub Automatic despite being superior to it. This is bad for a regiment that doesn't use Las weapons, but SP weapons.

 

If you boosted things by craftsmanship, doesn't that just up availability? Oh, it would be cheaper I guess.

 

Yeah, I guess it should be taken as a guideline since the "Add an item' option does not distinguish between whether it's a piece of armor, weapon, tool or wargear.

Doesn't the stub automatic and stub revolver have the ability to be more versitile, though? They have more different types of ammo you can equip them with.


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#7 Frankie

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 06:11 PM

They have different types of ammo but I don't think that really justifies the higher price for an inferior weapon. Unless you can get your hands on the other ammo. They're not part of your standard kit so you can't expect to get them often. Maybe 8 points total ould be fine if that included the price of non-standard ammunition, but it doesn't. Besides, las weapons can take hot-shot magazines too so that's moot.



#8 Face Eater

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 02:13 AM

Frankie said:

Anyone else think this doesn't make much sense? Some points:

  • Compared to at least DH, they raised the availability of Stub Autos from Plentiful to Average. Stub Autos as a side arm are eight points versus a Laspistol for five points. This is very bad if your Regiment has SP weapon training and not Las. Laspistols have -1 damage and -1 RoF (2 vs 3). But they have over x3 the Clip (30 vs 9) and reload for twice as long (Half vs Full).
  • It's essentially 10 points to replace a Laspistol with a Lasgun. I have no idea if that's me misreading it, or RAW/I. First you have to spend 5 for the carbine, then 5 for the Lasgun, even though both weapons are roughly equal.
  • Autogun isn't listed as a Main Weapon option.
  • Shotguns are 10 points. Why? It's eight points for an Average item. Shotguns have Scatter, but Lasguns have Clip, Range, RoF and even Damage/Pen if you take in Variable.
  • There's no options for additional Clips, or how much you'd get?

 

Stub Autos should be made 5 points and reduced to Common or Plentiful.  It should only take 5 points (or less, since both are Common) to replace a Laspistol with a Lasgun, Autogun, Lascarbine, etc. Replacing a Lasgun with a Shotgun really shouldn't be so expensive since there's plenty of downsides. Technically, it'd be slightly cheaper to just get an additional Shotgun. But with how it is now, most GMs would just see that as being 'sneaky'.

There's a few things about it that I don't really get and I've mentioned some of them on a previous thread. It would be nice to know their intention behind some of the decisions. Probably intend to expand it in Hammer of the Emperor.

The only shotgun mentioned is actually the 'Combat shotgun' which is scarce and would be 10 points acording to additional item section.

It's not an exuastive list So that being said I don't think it would cost more than 5 points to replace their main weapon with an autogun (or a normal shotgun or pump action) which is just not really used much by the IG in the TT and the Lasguns are a munitorium standard, it's more of a renegade thing, that doesn't mean I think it shouldn't be allowed, I think that's just why it wasn't included.

And a lot of the availabilities are different to DH, this I attribute it to being the guard logistics rather than the open market and in this case they use las pistols a lot and the logisitics are easier for the las weapons. At least the stub revolver is the cheapest of the sidearms.

For additional ammo I'd look at table 6-14 on page 192, i'd have thought that would be the cost for 2 clips but it's anyones guess (you and your GM's importantly).



#9 Kasatka

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:44 AM

Autoguns are such a rarity in the guard that adding it to your kit via the "add any item"at the bottom of the kit options is the best way of going about it. That said i agree that the availability of SP weapons is poor - improving Stub/auto weapons 1 step would rectify the situation.

A clarification about ammunition purchasing would also be great!

Finally anything added to your regiment kit becomes standard issue, and so is always available. This means if you minmax the regiment creation system you can begin the game with bolters and light carapace, for which you always have replacements (at least hat is how RAW explains standard regiment kit).


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#10 Frankie

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:19 AM

By improving, you mean decreasing it? Really, I do not see why players should be penalized for wanting their MW to be an SP weapon, especially when it's a Weapon Training option at chargen, since there will be players who want a autogun over a lasgun. :"Fluff" doesn't do it for me since it doesn't make sense with fluff, and it sure as heck isn't balanced.

 

https://docs.google....tjnB_zf0CQ/edit Are rules I use for regiment gen.



#11 Routa-maa

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:57 PM

I remember from old IG Codex (or somewhere) that had mention of Catachan Jungle Fighters regiment that used Autoguns in Armageddon's equatorial jungles. Only reason was that, as they were fighting Orks, they had to have weapons that made loud enough noise to get the Orks interested to fight them.


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#12 AtoMaki

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:19 PM

I dunno, I think FFG simply hit the stub/auto weapons with the nerfhammer, so players can discover the humble lasgun. I mean, I saw autogun builds what rivalled boltguns in terms of firepower… So why would anyone take lasguns if you can have the better autogun? And since lasguns are the symbolic weapons of the IG, I can see why autoguns were messed up. Same thing what happened with the tech-priests, essentially…



#13 Frankie

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 01:43 AM

Yeah. It's really bad game design to force players to play in a certain way, like with the autogun being expensive for no reason other than fluff (which doesn't work as an argument anyway since the autogun would be their standard weapon, not a secondary weapon in a lasgun-wielding regiment)



#14 Bassemandrh

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 04:08 AM

The rules should always reflect the lore as much as possible, and the guard gets send tons of las guns because its easier for the munitorum to maintain those weapons as opposed to Sp weapons that needs alot of ekstra ammo. You can always see the availability difficulty as how hard it is to convince them to send SP weapons instead of Las.

Im not sure if the las pistol have any other rate of fire aside som S (single shot), but im pretty sure the stub automatic has got a RoF of 2 aswell making it semi auto and there for able to make supression as an action in combat. Supression from a side arm? that seems to be worth some extra points to me.



#15 Routa-maa

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 05:26 AM

Las weapons are easiest weapons to maintain as they have next to no moving parts and cheapest to produce. Chargepacks are easy to recharge from standard power sources and whole box of chargepacks, if you get your hands on one, contains more shots than box of autogun clips. More versatile than autogun through variable setting, remember you have to change autogun clip to benefit from differend ammo type, there isn't fireselector, as in lasgun you just flip switch. Lasgun and autogun have same damage, range and pen but autogun goes higher with RoF but just because you put more lead in the air doesn't make it better. FFG didn't hit autogun with nerfhammer but stayed true to the GW's canon as autoguns are more likely issued to PDF troops then IG regiment.

But remember there's always the Rule Zero. So if you want to start game with autogun wielding regiment the there's nothing to prevent you, as long as your get GM approval.


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#16 Frankie

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 10:20 PM

Suppressive Fire doesn't really justify it, since Stub Autos are inferior in just about every other way, and frankly, SF isn't exactly impressive.

Lasguns get variable settings. At this point I'd say they're roughly equal.

 

Fluff is still a really bad argument choice if autoguns are the standard weapon in your regiment. Or if the nearby forgeworld the munitorium supplies you through produces autoguns over lasguns for whatever reason. And believe me, with all the generated regiments I've seen, there certainly isn't something like a 10:1 lasgun to autogun ratio. Now, does it make sense for them to be average if your main weapon is a lasgun? Sure. But not when your MW is an autogun, and everyone is taking weapon proficiencies for SP weapons over Las.  When fluff doesn't stand as a valid argument for why a guard regiment should be penalized for 5-10 points, it's bad game design. Having to rely on a GM's mercy to houserule it doesn't make the system better.



#17 Routa-maa

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:15 PM

Kasatka said:

Finally anything added to your regiment kit becomes standard issue, and so is always available. This means if you minmax the regiment creation system you can begin the game with bolters and light carapace, for which you always have replacements (at least hat is how RAW explains standard regiment kit).

Yes bolters for everyone but the only problem I see in this would be that as the bolter is only added Item not the Main weapon which come included with this regiment would still be in a thight spot to requisition ammo for their bolters. They might requisition few clips as a standard kit stuff but then they would have to ditch the light carapace.

and yeah you can start to argue that replacing las pistol (main weapon) with las carbine (main weapon) doesn't include 4 clips of spare ammo for this new main weapon so you must use points to get these 4 or something clips. 

@Frankie

And why would Fluff be bad argument choice if your regiment has autogun as standard kit Main Weapon then that weapon is their weapon off preference and they have it, end of story. And most books Black Library has published about Guardsmen in most cases they have had las weapons. Damn even Hero of the Imperium Ciaphas Cain uses humble las pistol over Boltpistol and one shots Orks with it. Just remember even if they one shot Orks and Nids and Heretics in books and stuff they might not be so balanced if used directly in RPG games. 

And checked that in every corerules Autogun has been Average availability item.

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#18 Face Eater

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:17 AM

Routa-maa said:

Kasatka said:

 

Finally anything added to your regiment kit becomes standard issue, and so is always available. This means if you minmax the regiment creation system you can begin the game with bolters and light carapace, for which you always have replacements (at least hat is how RAW explains standard regiment kit).

 

 

Yes bolters for everyone but the only problem I see in this would be that as the bolter is only added Item not the Main weapon which come included with this regiment would still be in a thight spot to requisition ammo for their bolters. They might requisition few clips as a standard kit stuff but then they would have to ditch the light carapace.

and yeah you can start to argue that replacing las pistol (main weapon) with las carbine (main weapon) doesn't include 4 clips of spare ammo for this new main weapon so you must use points to get these 4 or something clips. 

@Frankie

And why would Fluff be bad argument choice if your regiment has autogun as standard kit Main Weapon then that weapon is their weapon off preference and they have it, end of story. And most books Black Library has published about Guardsmen in most cases they have had las weapons. Damn even Hero of the Imperium Ciaphas Cain uses humble las pistol over Boltpistol and one shots Orks with it. Just remember even if they one shot Orks and Nids and Heretics in books and stuff they might not be so balanced if used directly in RPG games. 

And checked that in every corerules Autogun has been Average availability item.

"Your team is ambushed by heretic cell and they all one shot your characters. Make new characters." NO THANK YOU!

"but im derailing from the main topic so back yo you Tom."

"Thanks Bob. And in the evening we have nice day with only 89,7% change of Heretical Insurrection."

I had imagined that replacing your main weapon also supplies the standard number of clips for the weapon. Again though it would be nice if that was specified.

And honestly I can see that you can get minimax it pretty heavily (not sure about a bolter and light carapace (unless he's talking about the best quality flak) but it is minimaxing and this is a group decision that has to be agreed with the GM it should be used to select appropriate gear not the best gear for the points and GM should feel free to deny. Sure you can spend all those points on a suit of best quality carapace armour, and If you wanted to play a regiement with carapace I'd be fine with it, but having a unit equiped like that without even a microbead between them and no respirator or photo visor, they are missing a lot of really important kit because of it. 

As for Autoguns, I'm completely fine with it, Lasguns are the absolute standard weapons, I can't think of one regiement from the background or stories that has an Autogun as standard. But if you want it for an affectation, that's in the rules, fine, so it costs some points. Just like the Vostroyans forked 10 points for best quality Lasguns or the Elysians were taxed 10 points for combat shotguns, which, like the autogun, are inferior to lasguns are most ranges but devastating up close. I can see rules being used, a custom hive world, a special regiment type that made it cheaper or allowed it straight off, and there may well be in a future suplement, but it's not at all out of the question at the moment.



#19 Routa-maa

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:59 AM

Well it could be whit las pistol to lascarbine to lasgun. But I haven't seen anywhere it says that if you requisition boltgun as additional weapon it changes it to main weapon. In my mind add item (availability) to standard kit they are used to add gear, unusual ammo or upgrade for weapon. Not for MinMaxin your weapon load. Well atleast they left vehicle availability out. "Were going to use our 30 points to requisition Sentinel for everyone" GM would propably facepalm himself alive.


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