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Trench Run


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#1 Tenrousei

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:27 AM

Just wanted clarification on this, although it seems "obvious"

The Trench Run states that it enhances the DS dial so that it may be "engaged like an objective (it is not an objective)."  My understanding of this is that it makes the dial immune to damage from:

1. Rebel Assault

2. Target of Opportunity

3. Undefended bonus

…as all of these specify a target or engaged objective.

Which basically means that it only takes damage from burst icons on cards.  I just wanted to make sure that this was the intent behind the wording on the card.

Thanks for the help.


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#2 Toqtamish

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:30 AM

While it as a matter of debate for some, the card is quite clearly stated so yes you are correct. The death star dial is not an objective and so those other cards do not work. It can only be engaged like an objective, that is all.



#3 Budgernaut

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 07:26 AM

I'm not so convinced. I feel that Target of Opportunity and the unopposed damage bonus are just as legal as blast damage icons.

Target of Opportunity: If you are the attacking player, deal 1 damage to the engaged objective.

Unopposed bonus: If at least one attacking unit has survived, and there are no surviving defenders, this is an unopposed engagement and the attacking player deals one bonus damage to the engaged objective card. This is known as an  unopposed  bonus .

Blast Damage:  If the striking player is attacking, he deals an amount of damage to the engaged enemy objective equal to the [blast] strength of the striking unit. If the striking unit is defending, its [blast] icon type does not resolve.

It seems to me that if you deny the first two items the ability to damage the Death Star dial because Trench Run does not make it an objective, then you also need to deny blast damage from damaging it as well.

Rebel Assault, I tihnk, clearly cannot target the Death Star dial.


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#4 C3PO

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 07:46 AM

Budgernaut said:

I'm not so convinced. I feel that Target of Opportunity and the unopposed damage bonus are just as legal as blast damage icons.

Target of Opportunity: If you are the attacking player, deal 1 damage to the engaged objective.

Unopposed bonus: If at least one attacking unit has survived, and there are no surviving defenders, this is an unopposed engagement and the attacking player deals one bonus damage to the engaged objective card. This is known as an  unopposed  bonus .

Blast Damage:  If the striking player is attacking, he deals an amount of damage to the engaged enemy objective equal to the [blast] strength of the striking unit. If the striking unit is defending, its [blast] icon type does not resolve.

It seems to me that if you deny the first two items the ability to damage the Death Star dial because Trench Run does not make it an objective, then you also need to deny blast damage from damaging it as well.

Rebel Assault, I tihnk, clearly cannot target the Death Star dial.

Target of Opportunity requires an objective which the Dial is not. Neither is it a card. You can engage the Dial like it's an objective, but I don't think the game lets you also play cards against it as though it's an objective.

 



#5 DailyRich

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 07:57 AM

Look at this way:  the US flag is red, white and blue.  If I paint a red stripe on myself, I'm not suddenly the US flag.  I just have something in common with it.

Basically, Trench Run paints a red stripe on the Death Star dial.  It gives it one aspect of an objective (being engaged and taking damage), but does not make it an objective.



#6 Budgernaut

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 07:59 AM

C3PO said:

 

Budgernaut said:

 

I'm not so convinced. I feel that Target of Opportunity and the unopposed damage bonus are just as legal as blast damage icons.

Target of Opportunity: If you are the attacking player, deal 1 damage to the engaged objective.

Unopposed bonus: If at least one attacking unit has survived, and there are no surviving defenders, this is an unopposed engagement and the attacking player deals one bonus damage to the engaged objective card. This is known as an  unopposed  bonus .

Blast Damage:  If the striking player is attacking, he deals an amount of damage to the engaged enemy objective equal to the [blast] strength of the striking unit. If the striking unit is defending, its [blast] icon type does not resolve.

It seems to me that if you deny the first two items the ability to damage the Death Star dial because Trench Run does not make it an objective, then you also need to deny blast damage from damaging it as well.

Rebel Assault, I tihnk, clearly cannot target the Death Star dial.

 

 

Target of Opportunity requires an objective which the Dial is not. Neither is it a card. You can engage the Dial like it's an objective, but I don't think the game lets you also play cards against it as though it's an objective.

 

 

 

But that's kind of my point. Blast damage also can only go on an engaged enemy objective, which the dial is not. So if you argue against Target of Opportunity, you can't have your blast damage either.

Target of Opportunity, the unopposed bonus, and blast damage are all effects that can only happen during an engagement and all of their effects refer to an engaged objective. (Okay, so maybe not the unopposed bonus since the dial is technically not a card. I missed that before.) Rebel Assault, however, deals damage to a target objective rather than an engaged objective, so the wording is fundamentally different from blast damage.

I need a really clear reason why it's okay to put blast damage on a non-objective when you can't do the same with Target of Opportunity.

Aside: It's a real shame you don't get an unopposed bonus on the Trench Run. I suddenly find myself much less likely to use this card for something other than an edge battle.


"There is a fine line between neutral and amoral. In fact, there may be no line there at all."

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#7 DailyRich

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 08:02 AM

Budgernaut said:

But that's kind of my point. Blast damage also can only go on an engaged enemy objective, which the dial is not. So if you argue against Target of Opportunity, you can't have your blast damage either.

 

Yes you can, because that's what the card allows you to do.



#8 DailyRich

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 08:03 AM

Budgernaut said:

Aside: It's a real shame you don't get an unopposed bonus on the Trench Run. I suddenly find myself much less likely to use this card for something other than an edge battle.

Because it only requires you to do 10 points of damage to an Dark Side target to win the game as opposed to the 14 or 15 you'd have to do to take out three objectives.  And without the Dark Side player being able to employ cards and abilities that would protect an objective.



#9 DailyRich

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 08:05 AM

It's so thematically elegant too.  The Death Star could only be destroyed by an exact hit in a very small, precise location.  So it makes sense that the dial can only be damaged by actually going up there and engaging it and doing damage to it.



#10 Budgernaut

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 08:28 AM

DailyRich, I totally agree with what you're saying. It is very thematic. It makes sense that I can't play Rebel Assault against it. I, too, thought that you can damage it with blast damage because, after all, it says it can take 10 damage.

However, when I saw this thread, I went to the rule book to see how wording is different between the different effects. All along, everyone says that you can't do anything to the Death Star dial except engage it because it is not an objective, but let's say you engage it. Okay now what? Congratulations, LS player, we're now having an engagement at the Death Star dial via Trench Run. What are you going to do next? Target of Opportunity? Nope, the Death Star dial isn't an objective, try again. Blast damage? Sorry, it's still not an objective. Unopposed bonus? Well, hehe, the dial is not an objective, and it most certainly is not a card. Guess that was a waste of your units' activations.

What I'm saying is that I agree with you on the intent of the card, but when I try to make the cards and the rule book tell me why blast damage works but Target of Opportunity does not, I'm coming up short.


"There is a fine line between neutral and amoral. In fact, there may be no line there at all."

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#11 Toqtamish

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 08:34 AM

Because the card says it can take damage. And if a card overrides the rulebook, the card wins.



#12 Budgernaut

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 08:40 AM

I swear I'm not trying to be obtuse and I'm not trying to troll, but your response doesn't help me understand anything. Target of Opportunity deals damage to the engaged objective as well, so why does that fail when blast damage does not? Is there an intrinsic tie between engagement and combat icons? If that's the reasoning, I see fate cards as being just as tied to an enagement as combat icons since neither can be used outside of engagements, in contrast to Rebel Assault.

I'll try to let this be my last post on this thread for today, even if I'm not satisfied with the answers.


"There is a fine line between neutral and amoral. In fact, there may be no line there at all."

--Count Dooku


#13 Tappiocca

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 08:57 AM

The way I read it.. The Dial can be attacked as if it Were an Objective (but IS NOT an Objective). Cards that specifically target objectives may not target the dial.. Yet it takes blast damage from Units that are able to deal blast damage within conflict.



#14 DailyRich

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:00 AM

Trench Run lets you engage the dial like an objective.

The end result of an engagement is focusing to strike, which deals damage.

Therefore, Trench Run allows you to deal damage to the dial as you would to an objective -- through an engagement.

It does not let you do anything else objective-related to the dial.  It does not make the dial an engaged objective.  It is the dial being engaged like an objective.  Nothing more.  

Not actually being an objective doesn't preclude it from being damaged because the card speficially states you're engaging it as if it were one.  It's simply taking on that single aspect of an objective precisely so you can damage it.

 



#15 zmobie

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 01:01 PM

I'm sorry, but any card that lets you deal damage to the engaged objective WILL work with Trench Run. That means that Target of Opportunity, and the unopposed bonus both work. You can't say blast damage works, and these don't. It's all or nothing. If Target of Opportunity doesn't work, then neither does blast damage, and there is no way to actually damage the dial at all.



#16 Toqtamish

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 01:13 PM

The dial is not an engaged objective. It can be engaged like an objective but is not an objective. 



#17 zmobie

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 01:25 PM

If that's the case then literally nothing can damage it since blast damage, as stated in the rule book, deals damage to the engaged objective. 



#18 DailyRich

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 01:58 PM

And, per Trench Run, to the Death Star dial.  Which does not, however, make it an objective.



#19 Toqtamish

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:02 PM

zmobie said:

If that's the case then literally nothing can damage it since blast damage, as stated in the rule book, deals damage to the engaged objective. 

 

The Golden Rule page 11. 



#20 Budgernaut

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:45 PM

The reason for the schism is becoming clearer. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are two lines of thinking here.

1) Trench run allows you to engage the Death Star dial as though it were an objective, and since you do blast damage when you engage an objective, blast damage inherently applies to the Death Star dial when Trench Run is in play.

2) Trench run allows you to engage the Death Star dial but that is all. Blast damage is a distinct effect from engagement. If blast damage applies to Death Star dial via Trench Run (which we all agree it should), then Target of Opportunity should also apply because there is virtually no difference between blast damage text and Target of Opportunity text (except for the word "enemy" in the blast damage rules).

When I read the rules, my mind doesn't automatically assume that blast damge = engaging an objective, so that's why I'm in camp 2.


"There is a fine line between neutral and amoral. In fact, there may be no line there at all."

--Count Dooku





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