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#1 Rowdy

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:32 PM

Should a Koiogran turn also be able to be conducted by turning 180 first then moving forward or will this create an imbalance?


 

 


#2 Duraham

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:32 PM

no. as an abuser of the collision rule to get my ships exactly where I want them (and usually flying in a squad leader in to give it actions afterwards), I say changing the rulings to allow that would mean that i could rotate my ship on the spot to face any direction i want it to with very minor lateral movements (or none at all), and that's broken beyond imagination.

 

as of now, the best I could do is up to 90deg on the spot rotations, and that has already warrant warnings of sitting out future games among friends if i pulled that **** again



#3 Carist

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 01:44 AM

Duraham said:

as of now, the best I could do is up to 90deg on the spot rotations, and that has already warrant warnings of sitting out future games among friends if i pulled that **** again

 

 

How are you doing a 90deg on the spot rotation?  If you are pushed back to the point where you don't move at all, you shouldn't be rotating at all either.  



#4 magadizer

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:01 AM

Carist said:

Duraham said:

 

as of now, the best I could do is up to 90deg on the spot rotations, and that has already warrant warnings of sitting out future games among friends if i pulled that **** again

 

 

 

 

How are you doing a 90deg on the spot rotation?  If you are pushed back to the point where you don't move at all, you shouldn't be rotating at all either.  

 

Absolutely. You weren't so much abusing the rule as flat out breaking it, or making up your own rule.


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#5 Joscha

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 07:03 AM

Barrel Roll (Expert Handling) with a slow (Rebel) ship maybe?



#6 Hrathen

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 07:17 AM

Rowdy said:

Should a Koiogran turn also be able to be conducted by turning 180 first then moving forward or will this create an imbalance?

Rowdy said:

Should a Koiogran turn also be able to be conducted by turning 180 first then moving forward or will this create an imbalance?

Every other turn takes your whole move.  If you turned, then moved in the koiogan turn your original facing would have nothing to do with the dirrection you flew.  That isn't true for any of the movements.


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#7 Duraham

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 01:34 PM

magadizer said:

 

Carist said:

 

Duraham said:

 

as of now, the best I could do is up to 90deg on the spot rotations, and that has already warrant warnings of sitting out future games among friends if i pulled that **** again

 

 

 

 

How are you doing a 90deg on the spot rotation?  If you are pushed back to the point where you don't move at all, you shouldn't be rotating at all either.  

 

 

 

Absolutely. You weren't so much abusing the rule as flat out breaking it, or making up your own rule.

 

 

 

use a TIE, have another ship block it from the side, not the front. execute a hard turn 1 into that ship. do the normal overlapping rule. HOWEVER, you need to ensure that the collision occurs at exactly one of the notches on the base of the ship. Then using the wonky moving back ruling, and also citing the example shown on the FFG rulebook itself, you then use that inner notch as a pivot and you bring your whole ship around such that you turn in further into the direction of your maneuver, whilst still maintaining the entire width of the maneuver template within your 2 notches on your ship's base, so you bring your ship about as close to 90deg turn as possible, and no rules are broken although it really is a very dirty trick. It's not 100% exactly "on the spot", but you will notice some overlap between your new position and your previous position.

 

it went through pretty much because the collision ruling is a very grey area in terms of the angle the ship is facing and how you are supposed to execute the maneuver along the entire template, especially for the hard turn 1, since it is too short for you to fit the entire ship on the template itself (ie. you can't do this trick on any other movement templates)



#8 ScottieATF

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:39 PM

Duraham said:

magadizer said:

 

Carist said:

 

Duraham said:

 

as of now, the best I could do is up to 90deg on the spot rotations, and that has already warrant warnings of sitting out future games among friends if i pulled that **** again

 

 

 

 

How are you doing a 90deg on the spot rotation?  If you are pushed back to the point where you don't move at all, you shouldn't be rotating at all either.  

 

 

 

Absolutely. You weren't so much abusing the rule as flat out breaking it, or making up your own rule.

 

 

 

use a TIE, have another ship block it from the side, not the front. execute a hard turn 1 into that ship. do the normal overlapping rule. HOWEVER, you need to ensure that the collision occurs at exactly one of the notches on the base of the ship. Then using the wonky moving back ruling, and also citing the example shown on the FFG rulebook itself, you then use that inner notch as a pivot and you bring your whole ship around such that you turn in further into the direction of your maneuver, whilst still maintaining the entire width of the maneuver template within your 2 notches on your ship's base, so you bring your ship about as close to 90deg turn as possible, and no rules are broken although it really is a very dirty trick. It's not 100% exactly "on the spot", but you will notice some overlap between your new position and your previous position.

 

it went through pretty much because the collision ruling is a very grey area in terms of the angle the ship is facing and how you are supposed to execute the maneuver along the entire template, especially for the hard turn 1, since it is too short for you to fit the entire ship on the template itself (ie. you can't do this trick on any other movement templates)

 

That is not at all how those rules work.  Nor, do I believe, are the notches part of the base beyond physically being there to notch in the templates.  You do not measure from the notches after all

 

If you ship does not move there is no way it could change it's facing.  Why pull that stuff when you even admit that after attempting to rationalize it that it isn't even close to 100%.



#9 ArcticSnake

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:41 PM

I think I get it… since there is no space to use the four notches on the base of the ship, you just use two of them and rotate your ship as far as you can but still keeping the template between the only two notches that is on the template.


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#10 Carist

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:55 PM

Duraham said:

magadizer said:

 

Carist said:

 

Duraham said:

 

as of now, the best I could do is up to 90deg on the spot rotations, and that has already warrant warnings of sitting out future games among friends if i pulled that **** again

 

 

 

 

How are you doing a 90deg on the spot rotation?  If you are pushed back to the point where you don't move at all, you shouldn't be rotating at all either.  

 

 

 

Absolutely. You weren't so much abusing the rule as flat out breaking it, or making up your own rule.

 

 

 

use a TIE, have another ship block it from the side, not the front. execute a hard turn 1 into that ship. do the normal overlapping rule. HOWEVER, you need to ensure that the collision occurs at exactly one of the notches on the base of the ship. Then using the wonky moving back ruling, and also citing the example shown on the FFG rulebook itself, you then use that inner notch as a pivot and you bring your whole ship around such that you turn in further into the direction of your maneuver, whilst still maintaining the entire width of the maneuver template within your 2 notches on your ship's base, so you bring your ship about as close to 90deg turn as possible, and no rules are broken although it really is a very dirty trick. It's not 100% exactly "on the spot", but you will notice some overlap between your new position and your previous position.

 

it went through pretty much because the collision ruling is a very grey area in terms of the angle the ship is facing and how you are supposed to execute the maneuver along the entire template, especially for the hard turn 1, since it is too short for you to fit the entire ship on the template itself (ie. you can't do this trick on any other movement templates)

 

The rules actually say to adjust it so the template remains centered on both sets of guides, not just line up the front and rotate it as much as you want.

 

It is true that you can't always use the back edge with the 1 turn, but you still need to keep the front guide as centered as possible.

 

1 Turn into an overlap

 

 

No

 

 

More like this

 

 

Second overlap

 

 

The rear guides are nowhere near the maneuver template

 

Split the difference as best as you can

 

 

 

The best way to do this is to move the ship forward across the guide while turning the ship to follow the path of the template until it touches the other ship.

 

 



#11 Reikkoil

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:56 AM

Great pictures and explanation, Carist.



#12 DailyRich

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 07:00 AM

Rowdy said:

Should a Koiogran turn also be able to be conducted by turning 180 first then moving forward or will this create an imbalance?

I've always imagined the Koiogran turn being sort of like an Immelman rather than forward movement followed by an abrupt 180.  The reversal is part of the overall maneuver, not something done at the end.  So it wouldn't really be possible to do the turn first.

We've never seen any of the Star Wars ships exhibit the ability to turn in place like the fighters in Babylon 5 or the new Battlestar Galactica.  The dogfights were always very aerodynamic.



#13 binici

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 07:56 AM

Sounds silly…

 



#14 Slamdunk74

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:20 AM

Hmmm, well in theory I could see the reverse coming at some point within the manuever but within the game it comes at the end.  I like the dog fight aspect or the banked turn and the sharp turn moving across the board.  Something that wouldn't happen in actual zero gravity zero atmosphere combat.  But in the Star Wars universe this is how it happens.  Which makes it more fun.  So I would think the reverse should take place at the end of the movement.  In games like Dauntless and Air Forec (Battleline then Avalon hill) your Immelman and slip moves could happen at the beginning of your move if you moved the correct distance in the prior move.  But then that leads to need to plot your flight and check your math.  Just my two cents.



#15 dvang

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:52 AM

Duraham said:

magadizer said:

 

Carist said:

 

Duraham said:

 

as of now, the best I could do is up to 90deg on the spot rotations, and that has already warrant warnings of sitting out future games among friends if i pulled that **** again

 

 

 

 

How are you doing a 90deg on the spot rotation?  If you are pushed back to the point where you don't move at all, you shouldn't be rotating at all either.  

 

 

 

Absolutely. You weren't so much abusing the rule as flat out breaking it, or making up your own rule.

 

 

 

use a TIE, have another ship block it from the side, not the front. execute a hard turn 1 into that ship. do the normal overlapping rule. HOWEVER, you need to ensure that the collision occurs at exactly one of the notches on the base of the ship. Then using the wonky moving back ruling, and also citing the example shown on the FFG rulebook itself, you then use that inner notch as a pivot and you bring your whole ship around such that you turn in further into the direction of your maneuver, whilst still maintaining the entire width of the maneuver template within your 2 notches on your ship's base, so you bring your ship about as close to 90deg turn as possible, and no rules are broken although it really is a very dirty trick. It's not 100% exactly "on the spot", but you will notice some overlap between your new position and your previous position.

 

it went through pretty much because the collision ruling is a very grey area in terms of the angle the ship is facing and how you are supposed to execute the maneuver along the entire template, especially for the hard turn 1, since it is too short for you to fit the entire ship on the template itself (ie. you can't do this trick on any other movement templates)

Carist's pictures are pretty spot on. Essentially you are backing the moving ship up, keeping the moving ships front and back notches aligned with the template until it reaches the point where the bases are no longer overlapping and are just touching.






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