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ability on Secrets of Yavin 4


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#1 sephiroth8211

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:25 PM

If lets say i use secret of yavin 4 to redirect a challenge from objective A to itself, can DS after engaging secrets of yavin 4 objective, raise another challenge against objective A during the challenge phase with any ready forces left? This is because objective A have yet to be engaged this turn.



#2 Toqtamish

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:54 PM

 

The card says right on it (Limit once per turn) . So yes your opponent could attack the original objective next if he has units available to do so.



#3 dbmeboy

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 03:55 PM

Note that Secrets' ability is an interrupt. That means that it happens before the triggering condition (engaging a different objective) thus changing the engaged objective to itself before the original objective was engaged. Thus, as Toqtamish said, the other objective can still be engaged since it hasn't been yet.

#4 shaggscoob

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:59 PM

when exactly can you use this ability? Do you use it before or after attackers are declared?  Before/after defenders are declared?



#5 Arduwin

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:27 AM

shaggscoob said:

when exactly can you use this ability? Do you use it before or after attackers are declared?  Before/after defenders are declared?

I would say before attackers are declared, as you can see on page 31 of the rule book. The interrupt kicks in the moment the objective is declared and the interrupt is resolved completely before going to the next step.

Engagement Resolution

Step "Active player chooses one enemy ojective card to engage"

Interrupt of "The Secret of Yavin 4"

Step "Active player declares attackers"

 



#6 shaggscoob

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:24 AM

Ah ok, missed that clarification somehow. Thanks!

#7 Arduwin

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:07 AM

I accidentely happen to see this same question posted on another forum and there was someone who gave the same answer, but then thought of something else. I'll put his quote here:

 

" I had a slight niggle on my last answer and re-checked the rule book, and rulings we had through playtest, and I'm not sure the rulebook quite captures the timing right here.
 
You declare the objective (step 1) and you declare the attackers (step 2). My understanding is that the engagement can't start until both are declared, so the timing here should be something like "the engagement is considered to commence simultaneously with the declaration of attackers" (and all attackers must be declared simultaneously too don't forget).
 
Along these lines, there's a difference between "declaring which objective he will engage" (step 1) and actually "engaging" an objective (step 2). As a result, because the Secret of Yavin 4 interrupt happens on the "engagement", all declared attackers would then be forced to switch their attack to the "new" objective, and the attacker doesn't get the chance to add/subtract attackers (because the declaration of attackers happened simultaneously with the "engagement").
 
Apologies for the accidental mislead. This should be one for the upcoming FAQ to confirm."
 
I think he has a point here and should indeed be tackled by FFG in the upcoming FAQ. 
 
What do you think?


#8 shaggscoob

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:32 AM

This has come up many times so far, which is why i asked. I really think it needs to be clarified.

#9 Surge1000

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 07:06 PM

Arduwin said:

I accidentely happen to see this same question posted on another forum and there was someone who gave the same answer, but then thought of something else. I'll put his quote here:

 

" I had a slight niggle on my last answer and re-checked the rule book, and rulings we had through playtest, and I'm not sure the rulebook quite captures the timing right here.
 
You declare the objective (step 1) and you declare the attackers (step 2). My understanding is that the engagement can't start until both are declared, so the timing here should be something like "the engagement is considered to commence simultaneously with the declaration of attackers" (and all attackers must be declared simultaneously too don't forget).
 
Along these lines, there's a difference between "declaring which objective he will engage" (step 1) and actually "engaging" an objective (step 2). As a result, because the Secret of Yavin 4 interrupt happens on the "engagement", all declared attackers would then be forced to switch their attack to the "new" objective, and the attacker doesn't get the chance to add/subtract attackers (because the declaration of attackers happened simultaneously with the "engagement").
 
Apologies for the accidental mislead. This should be one for the upcoming FAQ to confirm."
 
I think he has a point here and should indeed be tackled by FFG in the upcoming FAQ. 
 
What do you think?

The person who posted that was a playtester for the game, so I lend some credence to his answer.  There's no way you could determine that Secret of Yavin 4's interrupt effect would be triggered after the target objective  and attackers are declared based on the rulebook alone.  The rulebook would lead you to the logical conclusion that the ability would occur after step 1 of an engagement, where you choose an objective.  It definitely needs to be addressed in the FAQ and updated in the first revision of the rules.  I am glad it works the way it does though, because The Secret of Yavin 4 would be pretty crappy otherwise.  We just need the rules to clarify the intent of the games' designers.



#10 bhosp

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 06:54 AM

I actually read it a different way, that you use Secret of Yavin at Step 1, but that your opponent now can't engage the original objective they declared as the target again on the same turn, because it seems to me like you would "use up" your chance to engage that original objective by announcing it as the target.

Your opponent would, on the other hand, then be able to also engage Secret of Yavin again that turn, by declaring it as the target of an engagement.

Otherwise, what happens if you engage Secret of Yavin 4 first, then engage another objective? Can your opponent now not use the ability (because you already engaged Secret of Yavin)? If not, would using the ability just prevent your engagement?



#11 dbmeboy

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 07:06 AM

bhosp said:

I actually read it a different way, that you use Secret of Yavin at Step 1, but that your opponent now can't engage the original objective they declared as the target again on the same turn, because it seems to me like you would "use up" your chance to engage that original objective by announcing it as the target.

Your opponent would, on the other hand, then be able to also engage Secret of Yavin again that turn, by declaring it as the target of an engagement.

Otherwise, what happens if you engage Secret of Yavin 4 first, then engage another objective? Can your opponent now not use the ability (because you already engaged Secret of Yavin)? If not, would using the ability just prevent your engagement?

As Secret of Yavin 4's ability is an interrupt, its results happen before the triggering condition.  In this case, the triggering condition is engaging another objective.  That means that Secret becomes the engaged objective before the original objective was "engaged" and thus it has not been engaged.  Secret, on the other hand, has been engaged and cannot be engaged again.

I'm actually going to say that Secret of Yavin 4 being engaged does not prevent it from using its ability to end up being engaged a 2nd time, though that is by no means clear in the rules (submitting rules question to FFG so hopefully it will be in the FAQ).  There's no step in the engagement process that rechecks if the engaged objective has already been engaged this turn.



#12 Rogue 4

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 07:56 AM

So which is the indent of the card:

1) to prevent you from attacking objective A that is about to be blown up, and preventing you from attacking it again since it was originally targeted allowing you to attack Secret if Yavin twice?

or

2) just a way to stop you from blowing up objective A when it would not Secret of Yavin, but still allowing you to target objective A again this turn.

 

Just curious to all those that have played other FFG LCGs.

 


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#13 Surge1000

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 10:17 AM

dbmeboy said:

I'm actually going to say that Secret of Yavin 4 being engaged does not prevent it from using its ability to end up being engaged a 2nd time, though that is by no means clear in the rules (submitting rules question to FFG so hopefully it will be in the FAQ).  There's no step in the engagement process that rechecks if the engaged objective has already been engaged this turn.

 

Text from The Secret of Yavin 4:

"Interrupt: When 1 of your other objectives is engaged, your opponent engages this objective instead. (Limit once per turn.)"

 

The only relevant text I could find is from page 18:

Each enemy objective may be engaged only once per conflict phase. If the active player has already engaged all of his enemy’s current objectives this phase, he must proceed to the Force phase.

 

At first glance, I wanna say that The Secret of Yavin 4 would not be a valid target for its own ability if it had already been engaged in the same conflict phase.  But the card doesn't use terminology that would require a legal target, rather, an argument could be made that the golden rule is in effect.  The Secret of Yavin 4 ability doesn't seem to care about prior engagements or legal targets. Its only limitation is listed in its text, "limit once per turn."  I'm leaning toward agreeing with dmeboy.

 

 

As for intent, my understanding of the way the Secret of Yavin 4 should work is that the LS player would end up with some degree of control over what attackers were going to be engaging "objective A," because he would know which attackers were being declared before having the option to redirect the attack.  If protecting objective A is paramount, one may be able to assign adequate defense to that objective against 1-2 attackers whereas he may not have fared as well against the 4 attackers the DS player initially wanted to send.

 

 

 

 



#14 bhosp

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 07:36 AM

This is definitely the least clear card in the set, to the point that when it comes out I (as the DS player) just spend all my efforts trying to destroy it because I don't know what it does and I fear what I don't understand.



#15 Budgernaut

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:22 AM

bhosp said:

This is definitely the least clear card in the set, to the point that when it comes out I (as the DS player) just spend all my efforts trying to destroy it because I don't know what it does and I fear what I don't understand.

LOL! I love this post!

As for me, I've always played that The Secret of Yavin 4 allows you to redirect an attack from a different objective once per turn. The other objective can be engaged later in the combat phase. The Secret of Yavin 4 cannot use its ability if it has already been engaged.

After reading the comments, I can see how there can be lots of confusion and my interpretation may not be right. I'm excited to see what the FAQ says about this. Has anyone posted a rules question on this one yet?


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#16 DailyRich

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:37 AM

The use of the word "other" in the ablitity would seem to preclude Yavin 4 from using its ability on itself.  Now, if you had two of them in play, I suppose you could deflect from one to the other if you wanted to.



#17 Surge1000

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:22 PM

DailyRich said:

 

The use of the word "other" in the ablitity would seem to preclude Yavin 4 from using its ability on itself.  Now, if you had two of them in play, I suppose you could deflect from one to the other if you wanted to.

 

 

 

I may have been a bit awkward in my wording.  What I meant was that I don't know that the ability on The Secret of Yavin 4 precludes redirection of another engagement to The Secret of Yavin 4 if it had already been engaged in the same conflict phase, assuming that had not been as a result of a redirected engagement caused by the interrupt ability from the TSoY4 in question.

 

For example:

DS engages The Secret of Yavin 4 (expecting I would have redirected the attack from A had he chosen that first).  Engagement resolves.

DS attempts to engage objective A.

I use the interrupt ability on The Secret of Yavin 4, redirecting the engagement to TSoY4.

Opponent says, "Hey, you can't do that.  TSoY4 has already been engaged this conflict phase."

 

Therein lies the question.  Can I redirect to TSoY4 if I haven't used its interrupt ability yet during a turn in which it has already been engaged?  I was leaning toward the answer being "no," but it certainly isn't clear.  I'm on the fence now.  The golden rule may mean that the text of TSoY4 trumps that it has already been engaged in the same conflict phase.



#18 bhosp

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:54 AM

Budgernaut said:

bhosp said:

 

This is definitely the least clear card in the set, to the point that when it comes out I (as the DS player) just spend all my efforts trying to destroy it because I don't know what it does and I fear what I don't understand.

 

 

LOL! I love this post!

As for me, I've always played that The Secret of Yavin 4 allows you to redirect an attack from a different objective once per turn. The other objective can be engaged later in the combat phase. The Secret of Yavin 4 cannot use its ability if it has already been engaged.

After reading the comments, I can see how there can be lots of confusion and my interpretation may not be right. I'm excited to see what the FAQ says about this. Has anyone posted a rules question on this one yet?

But does that happen before or after attackers are declared?



#19 Toqtamish

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:09 AM

bhosp said:

 

But does that happen before or after attackers are declared?

 

 

 

As per timing chart in the back of the rulebook:

Engagement
Resolution

Active player chooses one enemy
objective card to engage.


Active player declares attackers.
PLAYER ACTIONS

So it would be before attackers as you choose the objective you engage first, The Secret of Yavin 4's interrupt kicks in, then you choose your attackers.


 



#20 dbmeboy

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:06 AM

It was mentioned in an earlier thread that attackers are declared before Secret can use its interrupt per playtesters.  That said, I tend to agree with Toqtamish's RAW assessment.  However, I wouldn't say that it's a solid case as you must have at least 1 attacker for an objective to be engaged (you can't declare an engagement with zero attackers - pg 18).  That gives credit to the argument that the objective is not engaged until attackers are declared, which is what playtesters were (reportedly) told.






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