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Special Actions/Orders Clarification


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#1 simpatikool

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:42 AM

Folks,

 

I am specifically trying to get a better understanding of the various special actions. Like Medic, Repair, Reload to name a few.

When a model with the Medic ability in the unit wants to use the Medic ability does the entire unit have to take that action? The rule book seems to indicate this is the case.

An example would be the Schwer Platoon Heavy Kommandtruppe. During its activation it wants to use the repair action. It could as a unit take a move action and then as a unit take a repair action. Or it could take a repair action, then take an attack action?

Is it possible that the Kommandtruppe could take a move action, then the model with repair take a repair action, and other models in the unit take their respective attack actions?

Can you take a special action as a order? I know in the order section of the rule book it states you can take move, attack or special orders…but could I say Reload as an order?

It seems very limiting to for a unit with special actions to actually use them, when it actually limits the entire unit to taking that action.

 

Thank you

 

 

 



#2 Maverickg

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:52 AM

During the unit phase each activating unit is able to make two actions, move and fire action, in either order (Reaction and Suppression not withstanding).  Or take a double action, marchmove or sustained attack.  Page 33 of Core rules under Attacks states "Some units have additional special actions they may take instead of the standard move and attack actions."  Later under Special Actions it gives the example of reload.

 This is a good question because the "and" I have highlighted indicates the special action would replace both actions.  I have never played it this way with my group.  Here is why:  Neither The Special Actions section on page 33, nor the sections on reaction or suppression mention limiting the use of a special order like it does for a double action.  In addition you can give a Special Action order in the command phase.  The conclusion is a Special Action such as Medic, Mechanic, Reload are equal to one standard move or attack action.

This conclusion is reinforced by FAQ 1.3 on page 3 under Unit Phase.

For example, your Kommandotrupp could activate to move 6" and use the Medic or Mechanic ability in the same Unit Phase.  It would have been more clear if the sentence I quoted had an "or" instead of "and".  In addition, this could be expressed under Special Actions or with each Special Ability.

I hoped this helped.



#3 Mike J

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 02:51 AM

I agree completely.  The "and" in that sentence should really be an "or".  A Special Action can be made in place of any other single action.



#4 simpatikool

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:56 AM

So then I think we are on the same page. Unfortunately. If my Schwer Platoon Kommand section wants to use the medic option, its an action for the whole team, not just the medic model.

 

I just have a hard time imagining this is by design.

 

 



#5 Mike J

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:49 AM

I don't agree with that at all.  Each miniature in the unit can choose which action to take.  The Medic can use Medic, the Mechanic can use Mechanic, and the rest can choose to Attack.  Actually, this is how I see those command units used most frequently.  They move, the Medic removes suppression from a nearby unit, the Mechanic removes blind from a nearby vehicle and the other guys take a pot shot hoping to cause suppression.



#6 Mattador Actual

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:19 AM

Mike J said:

 

I don't agree with that at all.  Each miniature in the unit can choose which action to take.  The Medic can use Medic, the Mechanic can use Mechanic, and the rest can choose to Attack.  Actually, this is how I see those command units used most frequently.  They move, the Medic removes suppression from a nearby unit, the Mechanic removes blind from a nearby vehicle and the other guys take a pot shot hoping to cause suppression.

 

 

CR p.53 "Mechanic:  A unit* with one or more mechanics may take a special Repair action to attempt field maintenance…"

The Medic SA reads the same.

*CR p.23 "When the rules make reference to a 'unit', they mean all miniatures that are part of the unit.  In the text, the distinction between 'unit' and 'miniature' is used deliberately."

 

 

 

 



#7 shadowz

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:11 PM

the real question is if you have Rosie in the command squad and you use the mechanic can she also do her tank head skill?



#8 Mattador Actual

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 02:53 PM

shadowz said:

the real question is if you have Rosie in the command squad and you use the mechanic can she also do her tank head skill?

To use Tank Head, you would use one of the unit's actions to perform a repair skill using Rosie.  If you were to use the Mechanic instead of Rosie (which I guess you would just have to say, "i'm using the mechanic and not Rosie to do the action), you wouldn't use Tank Head.

CR p.59 "A hero may become part of another unit…The hero is treated as part of the unit for the entire game."

Tank Head CR p.56 "The miniature functions as a Mechanic…"

 



#9 Maverickg

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 01:28 AM

Mike J said:

I don't agree with that at all.  Each miniature in the unit can choose which action to take.  The Medic can use Medic, the Mechanic can use Mechanic, and the rest can choose to Attack.  Actually, this is how I see those command units used most frequently.  They move, the Medic removes suppression from a nearby unit, the Mechanic removes blind from a nearby vehicle and the other guys take a pot shot hoping to cause suppression.

Mike,

This is a very interesting way to look at a special action order.

Please note that page 33 of the core rulebook states under Actions: Some units have additional special actions they may take instead of the standard Move and Attack actions.  This would indicate that the rest of the unit could not Attack.

I have to agree with Mattador Actual.  The text for both Medic and Mechanic abilities say the Unit can take a special Heal or Mechanic action.  It does not say the miniature takes the order.  Additionally, a unit may not shoot while performing a Reload action at the same time as far as I know.

How do you support your interpretation within the rules?  Please be specific.  If you're right, and I hope you are, I would have to sell this to my whole group.

Thank you.



#10 Mike J

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 05:03 AM

Yea, now that I've re-read it closely, the entire unit has to take the action. Something else to add to the never ending list of things we played wrong in Dust. Seems we've played more things wrong than right.



#11 Major Malfunction

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 02:52 PM

Mike J said:

Yea, now that I've re-read it closely, the entire unit has to take the action. Something else to add to the never ending list of things we played wrong in Dust. Seems we've played more things wrong than right.


It's that way with any game. As long as you are both playing the same way, it's not like you are cheating or anything, you're just learning!
 :)



#12 simpatikool

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:23 AM

Maverickg said:

Mike J said:

 

I don't agree with that at all.  Each miniature in the unit can choose which action to take.  The Medic can use Medic, the Mechanic can use Mechanic, and the rest can choose to Attack.  Actually, this is how I see those command units used most frequently.  They move, the Medic removes suppression from a nearby unit, the Mechanic removes blind from a nearby vehicle and the other guys take a pot shot hoping to cause suppression.

 

 

Mike,

This is a very interesting way to look at a special action order.

Please note that page 33 of the core rulebook states under Actions: Some units have additional special actions they may take instead of the standard Move and Attack actions.  This would indicate that the rest of the unit could not Attack.

I have to agree with Mattador Actual.  The text for both Medic and Mechanic abilities say the Unit can take a special Heal or Mechanic action.  It does not say the miniature takes the order.  Additionally, a unit may not shoot while performing a Reload action at the same time as far as I know.

How do you support your interpretation within the rules?  Please be specific.  If you're right, and I hope you are, I would have to sell this to my whole group.

Thank you.

 

Right now, our group plays it as the rules are written. Its the entire unit taking the medic action etc. At one point, we were allowing these special actions to also be used as orders, but we no longer do that as our group is getting bigger and bigger which means, we get more and more rulesy.

However, we all think it is a terrible rule. For the most part, the value you get from for example a medic order is not enough to warrant using it half the time. If the entire unit has to use the Medic order, I still only roll on bleeping die and have a 33% chance of success. If the entire unit attacks, they can use all their respective weapons and dice. I begrudgingly accept the rules as written, but think they are a travesty to an otherwsie wonderful game.

I also think they SHOULD be allowed to be used as orders, and also some sort of mechanic to allow the special actions to be sustained. Akin to if you make a sustained medic action (AKA forfeit the normal two actions and make one concentrated action, like march or sustained attack) the odds of success should go up. Like succeed on black vice succeed on a hit.

All that said, the rules as written don't state all that. You can infer it from examples like above (Pg 33 in the core rule book) but the RULES state that it is the unit that makes the action etc.

 

 

 



#13 Guido

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 02:26 AM

And to add something to the Special Actions discussion, I have a question.

Can you react to special actions? Or only to Move and Attack actions? Can I shoot a unit while reloading, or repairing, or are they safe?



#14 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:01 AM

Guido said:

And to add something to the Special Actions discussion, I have a question.

Can you react to special actions? Or only to Move and Attack actions? Can I shoot a unit while reloading, or repairing, or are they safe?

 

Only to Move and Attack actions. All other actions do not provoke.



#15 Guido

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:04 AM

Thank you very much.



#16 GamerDroid

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:03 AM

simpatikool said:

Maverickg said:

However, we all think it is a terrible rule. For the most part, the value you get from for example a medic order is not enough to warrant using it half the time. If the entire unit has to use the Medic order, I still only roll on bleeping die and have a 33% chance of success. If the entire unit attacks, they can use all their respective weapons and dice. I begrudgingly accept the rules as written, but think they are a travesty to an otherwsie wonderful game.

 

I find the medic action to be a good action. It just needs to be looked at for the suppression removing effect rather than the healing which is just a bonus if it occurs. It does require the command unit to follow closely to the target (that 6" from the model and not just the command unit is a pain). When used at the right time it can act as a mid turn regroup to get one of your fighting units back into the game.



#17 DEfairbanx

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 12:28 AM

I need same clarification about special orders and reaction markers:

 

"Fire for effect" - the issued unit (with artillery strike ability) gains a reaction marker (CR p.88)

"Smoke screen" - the command section gains no reaction marker (CR p.92)

 

Question:

"An army of one"  - who gains/gains not a reaction marker?



#18 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 03:09 AM

DEfairbanx said:

Question:

"An army of one"  - who gains/gains not a reaction marker?

Based on the text, no one gains a reaction. 

It could be argued that the Hero and his new unit, if he joins one, should receive a reaction marker since the Hero received an order. 






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