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Long lances ¿Restricted?


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#1 orion_kurnous

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:16 AM

Welll buddies, i play with stark and targarien normally, and in my opinion long lances would be restricted or rewirtten because are very very powerfull (street waif, Missandei, maesters….)  and his opponent character, Castellan of the rock, it´s restricted and only one per round.

Your opinion???

 

Thanks.



#2 stormwolf27

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:00 PM

Long Lances is good, but not OP enough to constitute a restriction, IMO. yes, they are non-unique, and their effect is stackable, even with the "once per phase" limitation… but, honestly, other than ambushing in your own characters, or playing against a deck with jump-in attackers/defenders, how often are you in a situation where this is the end-all effect of the phase, other than marshalling?

I personally think it's fine as is. Don't go calling down the banhammer without a really good reason :-P

There are quite a few other cards I would see restricted before this one.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#3 orion_kurnous

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:34 AM

Well, i suffer with a friend´s deck, that he use the street w 4 or 5 times per round, because long lances stand for characters opponents to, you can stand with shadows, ambush, khal drogo (core set), catelyn (low), and targ have many characters with ambush that permit stand every character that have and habiliti, and inf you play maesters with te pale chain you can put into play characters of cost 1 without ambush to stand your maester, and again and again….

 

It´s not enough to be restricted?



#4 orion_kurnous

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:08 AM

 

Well, i suffer with a friend´s deck, that he use the street w 4 or 5 times per round, because long lances stand for characters opponents to, you can stand with shadows, ambush, khal drogo (core set), catelyn (low), and targ have many characters with ambush that permit stand every character that have and habiliti, and inf you play maesters with te pale chain you can put into play characters of cost 1 without ambush to stand your maester, and again and again….

 

It´s not enough to be restricted?

 

I know there be more cards to be restricted, but for me this it´s the first



#5 Bomb

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 03:03 AM

To take advantage of Long Lances, the deck builder will most likely include 1 or more combinations of the following recursion event cards:

To be a Dragon
Recruitment
Ambushed from the Plains
Maegi's Promise(to return dead Long Lances/Street Waifs)

With Street Waif, you will be recycling those types of events very often as well.
 



#6 Twn2dn

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 06:07 AM

I suspect they will need to be restricted. The ability is probably a tad too strong. Maybe an errata of "limit 2 times per round" would be better? We'll see how it goes with Missandrei though.



#7 stormwolf27

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:28 PM

Twn2dn said:

I suspect they will need to be restricted. The ability is probably a tad too strong. Maybe an errata of "limit 2 times per round" would be better? We'll see how it goes with Missandrei though.

well, at most, as is, they're only getting to stand up to 3 characters a phase (providing the have all 3 out), and since plot, draw, standing, and taxation are pointless phases to trigger them (unless you're counteracting a brothel guard or lannisport brothel, and have a character to ambush in during standing), then you're basically only getting a max of 9 stands a round (that's a lot of influence or opponent ambush/shadows) if you're getting that many.

And, IMO, missandei is over-hyped. Unique, 1STR, moncon with influence… and "…can't be discarded…"? Can we say easy kill/kneel target? In my stark murder, I would so kneel grey wind to pop her in a heartbeat.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#8 WWDrakey

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:50 AM

stormwolf27 said:

well, at most, as is, they're only getting to stand up to 3 characters a phase (providing the have all 3 out), and since plot, draw, standing, and taxation are pointless phases to trigger them (unless you're counteracting a brothel guard or lannisport brothel, and have a character to ambush in during standing), then you're basically only getting a max of 9 stands a round (that's a lot of influence or opponent ambush/shadows) if you're getting that many.

~ It's not like standing were usually extremely limited (by targets, themes and also tending to be card disadvantage) even for the House that has it as a primary theme, eh?



#9 stormwolf27

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:04 AM

WWDrakey said:

stormwolf27 said:

 

well, at most, as is, they're only getting to stand up to 3 characters a phase (providing the have all 3 out), and since plot, draw, standing, and taxation are pointless phases to trigger them (unless you're counteracting a brothel guard or lannisport brothel, and have a character to ambush in during standing), then you're basically only getting a max of 9 stands a round (that's a lot of influence or opponent ambush/shadows) if you're getting that many.

 

 

~ It's not like standing were usually extremely limited (by targets, themes and also tending to be card disadvantage) even for the House that has it as a primary theme, eh?

 

was there a hint of sarcasm there? I honestly can't tell… text not conveying intonation and all. As I'm aware, Targ is known for their dragons, dothraki, attachment maipulation and burn, rather than standing (or kneeling, excluding balerion drop) shenanigans, before this card came along. I do agree, combined properly with a well-protected missandei, and street waif (providing there are characters in your discard), this could be a little OP… but that's a lot of conditionals.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#10 WWDrakey

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:19 AM

stormwolf27 said:

 

was there a hint of sarcasm there? I honestly can't tell… text not conveying intonation and all. As I'm aware, Targ is known for their dragons, dothraki, attachment maipulation and burn, rather than standing (or kneeling, excluding balerion drop) shenanigans, before this card came along. I do agree, combined properly with a well-protected missandei, and street waif (providing there are characters in your discard), this could be a little OP… but that's a lot of conditionals.

 

 

Yep, for the reasons you stated these Forums use the "~" to denote sarcasm.

To put Long Lances into perspective… until it came along, the two strongest stand engines in AGoT were Marya Seworth and Massey's Hook. One is a Baratheon staple, the second the sole reason Baratheon Wildlings tend to be more popular than other Wildlings. Both are unique, neither allows multiple stands very easily, and both do nothing else except stand a character. Oh, and Massey's Hook is pretty limited in in-house targets.

And you don't really need Missandei or Street Waif to make the stands in other phases worthwhile. A Targ Maester with some decent links should work as well (Pale Steel Link should help create extra stand triggers while you're at it). 

Not that the new Meerenese Fighting Pit is much worse mind you, it'll also allow the easy standing of Maesters every phase (Copper and Steel Links). 

EDIT: ~ I also remember some infinite-stand Bob doing well in a Tourney at some point, I wonder what that was…



#11 sabrefox

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:12 AM

WWDrakey said:

Not that the new Meerenese Fighting Pit is much worse mind you, it'll also allow the easy standing of Maesters every phase (Copper and Steel Links). 

Only if those Links gain Weapon traits. :)



#12 mdc273

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:54 AM

You'll need more empirical evidence of why Long Lances needs to be restricted. If you played top tier decks against the Long Lance deck and the top tier decks were consistently unable to beat it, then you've got a problem. There's not enough data on the viability of a deck focused on Long Lances for a determination right now.

You don't want to base it on theory or else we get The Laughing Storm fiasco again. Better to see the cards play out and take action as necessary.



#13 Bomb

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:26 AM

mdc273 said:

You'll need more empirical evidence of why Long Lances needs to be restricted. If you played top tier decks against the Long Lance deck and the top tier decks were consistently unable to beat it, then you've got a problem. There's not enough data on the viability of a deck focused on Long Lances for a determination right now.

You don't want to base it on theory or else we get The Laughing Storm fiasco again. Better to see the cards play out and take action as necessary.

I have not played against a Long Lances deck yet, but from what I hear it is very abusive with Street Waif.  The discard pile is often nearly empty.  Even if you kill off all the Long Lances and Street Waifs, they are returned to play with To Be a Dragon(put into play from dead pile) and Recruitment(put into play from dead OR discard pile) with ease.  Then Street Waif is knelt trigger its ability to reaquire these put into play events, which can then be used again in the next phase to grab any other dead or discarded Mercenary or Ally, thus allowing you to trigger Long Lances and standing the previously triggered Street Waif.  Then you can trigger the Street Waif again. 

If the deck is built without events like that, then you can get rid of Long Lances and Street Waif without too much worry that they will be returned to play easily.  The problem is, it's not just Ambush that triggers Long Lances.  It's that you have dead and discarded characters hopping into play and the ability to do this is very easy to reacquire with the Discard pile to hand recursion available.  In addition to that, with To be a Dragon, Long Lances is standing the second character in that player action window.

Now I don't know if that is all T1 or not, but if you have fill 12 of your card slots up with something like this, the rest of the deck you assemble I presume would be a combination resources and cards that will help you grab power or win challenges. Eventually, it will be too annoying to try and remove Long Lances and Street Waif and those events will be used on cards that will help you win challenges.

 

The above is just what I suspect is the irritation with facing Long Lances + Street Waif because you are probably going to have only 1 card in your discard pile for about 90% of the game.



#14 Shadowcatx

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:06 AM

Bomb said:

mdc273 said:

Now I don't know if that is all T1 or not, but if you have fill 12 of your card slots up with something like this, the rest of the deck you assemble I presume would be a combination resources and cards that will help you grab power or win challenges. Eventually, it will be too annoying to try and remove Long Lances and Street Waif and those events will be used on cards that will help you win challenges.

 

Given that it is the deck that won worlds, I'd say it is pretty tier 1. 



#15 ktom

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:27 AM

orion_kurnous said:

Well, i suffer with a friend´s deck, that he use the street w 4 or 5 times per round, 
I'm sorry. You said you play mostly Stark and Targaryen? With all the targeted character removal in those Houses, why are those Street Waifs still alive? I mean, if you played mostly Lannister, Martell, or Greyjoy, I could see it. But Stark and Targ and you are complaining that an opponent's 1-STR character's ability is being used too often?



#16 Bomb

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:58 AM

Shadowcatx said:

Bomb said:

 

mdc273 said:

Now I don't know if that is all T1 or not, but if you have fill 12 of your card slots up with something like this, the rest of the deck you assemble I presume would be a combination resources and cards that will help you grab power or win challenges. Eventually, it will be too annoying to try and remove Long Lances and Street Waif and those events will be used on cards that will help you win challenges.

 

 

 

Given that it is the deck that won worlds, I'd say it is pretty tier 1. 

I didn't realize it was the deck that won worlds specifically.  I was just relaying the buzz that had been going around.  I guess it winning worlds resulted in some netdecking action.



#17 WWDrakey

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:00 AM

sabrefox said:

WWDrakey said:

 

Not that the new Meerenese Fighting Pit is much worse mind you, it'll also allow the easy standing of Maesters every phase (Copper and Steel Links). 

 

 

Only if those Links gain Weapon traits. :)

~ Yeah, too bad the Copper Link there is busy giving the Maester a Warship Trait. Otherwise it could have been useful here somehow, I'm sure of it…



#18 WWDrakey

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:10 AM

ktom said:

orion_kurnous said:

Well, i suffer with a friend´s deck, that he use the street w 4 or 5 times per round, 

I'm sorry. You said you play mostly Stark and Targaryen? With all the targeted character removal in those Houses, why are those Street Waifs still alive? I mean, if you played mostly Lannister, Martell, or Greyjoy, I could see it. But Stark and Targ and you are complaining that an opponent's 1-STR character's ability is being used too often?

 

I love how you didn't even bother to mention Baratheon there… ;)

But yeah, I'm also a bit perplexed with how Street Waif could be an Issue for either Targ or Stark. I'd guess Bara and GJ would be the two Houses with the least solutions to such cards (and targeted removal of any kind for that matter), since Venomous Blade still exists for Martell (even if it is restricted) and Enslaved isn't all that bad as a solution either in Lannister.



#19 Skowza

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 12:38 PM

All of these things that have been mentioned are muti-card combos in a House that doesn't really draw all that well.  So you've used up a large portion of your hand playing your discount locations, Influence, SW, LL, etc… this isnt going to win games by itself.  It will be a bigger concern when Targ gets more Renown (yea, I realize they are getting more and more recently) but for the time being it seems like over-reacting to something that has not seen enough play.  Its also a Response and can be cancelled by a number of cards.

WWDrakey said:

~ I also remember some infinite-stand Bob doing well in a Tourney at some point, I wonder what that was…

We really just need a blanket "limit 3 times per phase/round" to all triggered effects in play; it'll eliminate the potential for nonsense and the designers wont have to worry about how players can infinitely abuse some combo off a new card.



#20 ktom

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 06:42 PM

Skowza said:

We really just need a blanket "limit 3 times per phase/round" to all triggered effects in play; it'll eliminate the potential for nonsense and the designers wont have to worry about how players can infinitely abuse some combo off a new card.
Is that 3 times per physical card or by card title? What if the card leaves play and comes back again in the same phase, does it's limit remain or start over? What if it changes control? Does it apply to events and other cards triggered while they're not in play? How does it work with lasting effects? 

Easy to say we need a blanket ruling. Not nearly as easy to execute as people think.






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