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#1 ThunderBear

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:04 AM

I have some players that are interested in playing other races at some point in RT. A couple want to be able to try out Eldar and Astartes. Is there a set of rules for RT to show racial differences?



#2 Cpt. Harkonnen

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 07:49 PM

Ok.. First off Astartes are the SPACE MARINES and that is a different game called Death Watch.  The whole purpose of play Rogue Trader is to play a ROGUE TRADER, ie: Space Pirate.  There are rules for Eldar but if you’re playing Eldar then you’re going off track of what ROGUE TRADER is about.  Sanctioned Xenos are allowed but they are few and extremely far between. See the In to the Storm book for that one. And if your players don’t know who or what the Space Marines are, then they or you for that matter have no business playing this game. But it is a free country…



#3 Fgdsfg

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 04:07 AM

The short answer to OP:s question is "No".

There are no set of rules for Rogue Trader on how to show racial differences, aside from the races offered, and the homeworld options (which is more "race" than the fantasy/sci-fi meaning of "race").

The races there *are* rules for are Orks and Kroot (in Into the Storm) and Dark Eldar (in Soul Reaver). Now, you'd think that all Eldar are Eldar, right? Well, rules-wise.. not so much. You could probably use the bare-bones stuff for the Dark Eldar and adapt it for your own Eldar Corsairs or Eldar Exodites.

Space Marines, however, is mostly the purview of Deathwatch - a completely different game that shares much of the same ruleset as Rogue Trader. I'd start looking at that for a base to build on. Actually porting the rules for a starting Space Marine would be extremely easy, but you'd have to realize that not all roles may be appropriate for him, for a variety of reasons.

The only Career I can imagine would fit him right off would be Rogue Trader, or possibly Missionary. For everything else that I would consider to be appropriate - Voidmaster or Arch-Militant - he might as well stick to the system Deathwatch offers, in which case you have to realize that you'd be juggling two very different progression systems. Also, be aware that even a starting Space Marine will blow everyone else out of the water, combat-wise.

Cpt. Harkonnen said:

 

Ok.. First off Astartes are the SPACE MARINES and that is a different game called Death Watch.  The whole purpose of play Rogue Trader is to play a ROGUE TRADER, ie: Space Pirate.  There are rules for Eldar but if you’re playing Eldar then you’re going off track of what ROGUE TRADER is about.  Sanctioned Xenos are allowed but they are few and extremely far between. See the In to the Storm book for that one. And if your players don’t know who or what the Space Marines are, then they or you for that matter have no business playing this game. But it is a free country…

 

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong.

Christ, you couldn't be more wrong.

There is absolutely nothing by fluff that would prevent a Space Marine Rogue Trader, or a Space Marine working for a Rogue Trader, and Rogue Traders dealing with Xenos of various kinds is what half the background is even about, and in no way, fashion, shape or form does a xenos *have* to be sanctioned to "be allowed"; there's even specific rules for Sanctioned Xenos, and nowhere does it say that it is mandatory or an inherent part of a xenos' progression (although I *would* heavily advise taking it, but on the other hand, similar things could easily be set up through roleplaying alone).

As for first saying "ROGUE TRADER, ie: Space Pirate" (which is wrong in so many ways), and then saying "if you are playing eldar then you're going off track of what ROGUE TRADER is about"… now, just to be clear here, you are dead wrong when you say that Rogue Trader is all about being Space Pirates (although that is one way to play the game), but I'd just like to take the time to point out your rampant ignorance by reminding everyone that there's a whole cultural sub-race of Eldar that pretty much does nothing but piracy to make their living out in the void - Eldar Corsairs.

To finish off, I also feel the need to say that I hate you, and people like you, telling people how to play their games, while also being wrong about absolutely everything that comes out of your mouth.

It would seem that you have no business playing this game, going by your own logic.


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#4 PantsCommander

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 06:11 AM

Let's dial back the prick-waving and name-calling a little bit here, shall we? 

Fgdsfg is correct when it comes to Eldar (or any Xenos for that matter) in that it would be entirely possible for a less-piously minded Rogue Trader to include Xenos in his crew. Fgdsfg gave some good resources, and Navis Primer has rules for Eldar and Ork psykers as well.

As for Space Marines, if a Space Marine was ever elevated to Rogue Trader status, there isn't a specific record of it. I'm not even sure that they could be, since they aren't exactly under the purview of the High Lords/Senate (who are the people that hand out Warrants) Fgdsfg, your citation from the original RT (tabletop) book isn't really useful since the background has changed significantly since then (your posted clipping says that RT's are empowered and equipped by the priesthood, for example). As a Space Marine crew member, well that depends on the Warrant. The XK-119 example below mentions that the Warrent empowered the trader to command a set SM force. Other warrants would likely not have that clause in it. Likely a SM crew member would be seconded to the crew for a specific mission, rather than be an actual member of the crew. Mechanically there would also be concerns adding a Space Marine, both from a progression point of view, a balance one (Space Marines would outlcass most every PC and NPC, at least physically), and equipment wise, since Astartes gear wouldn't be aquirable through typical channels.

So in short, if you want to include Space Marines as crew and stick to the fluff, it's possible but some care would be required. If you aren't overly concerned with the background, fireball forward. Deathwatch is the best for getting stats and skills, just be aware that FFG hasn't figured out how to have games within the same universe share systems in a smooth way quite yet, so there will be some conversion involved.



#5 Fgdsfg

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 07:32 AM

PantsCommander said:

Let's dial back the prick-waving and name-calling a little bit here, shall we? 

Fgdsfg is correct when it comes to Eldar (or any Xenos for that matter) in that it would be entirely possible for a less-piously minded Rogue Trader to include Xenos in his crew. Fgdsfg gave some good resources, and Navis Primer has rules for Eldar and Ork psykers as well.

As for Space Marines, if a Space Marine was ever elevated to Rogue Trader status, there isn't a specific record of it. I'm not even sure that they could be, since they aren't exactly under the purview of the High Lords/Senate (who are the people that hand out Warrants) Fgdsfg, your citation from the original RT (tabletop) book isn't really useful since the background has changed significantly since then (your posted clipping says that RT's are empowered and equipped by the priesthood, for example). As a Space Marine crew member, well that depends on the Warrant. The XK-119 example below mentions that the Warrent empowered the trader to command a set SM force. Other warrants would likely not have that clause in it. Likely a SM crew member would be seconded to the crew for a specific mission, rather than be an actual member of the crew. Mechanically there would also be concerns adding a Space Marine, both from a progression point of view, a balance one (Space Marines would outlcass most every PC and NPC, at least physically), and equipment wise, since Astartes gear wouldn't be aquirable through typical channels.

So in short, if you want to include Space Marines as crew and stick to the fluff, it's possible but some care would be required. If you aren't overly concerned with the background, fireball forward. Deathwatch is the best for getting stats and skills, just be aware that FFG hasn't figured out how to have games within the same universe share systems in a smooth way quite yet, so there will be some conversion involved.

Generally when it comes to Canon, everything official is canon until it is conflicted by a newer source, and in the case of Warhammer 40k - hilariously enough - everything is considered canon. All of it. Yes, that even includes the Half-Eldar Space Marine.

The specific Rogue Trader presented is even a High Lord of Terra, before he became a Rogue Trader. At the end of the day, *anyone* can potentially become a Rogue Trader, for whatever reason. Does that reason have to be "make sense" for that particular scenario or campaign? Of course, and the more involved things get, the better and more worked out the rationale must be - but this applies to Inquisitors as much as Chapter Masters or, dear lord, someone wanting to play an Ex-High Lord of Terra (which I would never advise, but it is nontheless *possible* to do so). In the grand scope of Warhammer 40k ("it's a big galaxy"), a Rogue Trader being an excommunicated Space Marine is really nothing.

And Rogue Traders working with Space Marines is mentioned over and over again, both in Rogue Trader and Deathwatch, to the point where the Core Rulebook of Rogue Trader even talks about forming compacts. Should there be a rationale for this? Of course! Space Marines are the Angels of the Emperor's Mercy, warriors trained for decades, genetically altered to literally spit acid and sustain themselves on raw meat or dirt, indoctrinated to serve far beyond regular infantrymen - to have one of them just randomly show up on the ship would be.. for lack of another word, completely retarded.

But there are nontheless many ways a Space Marine - or an entire company of them, should the GM be crazy - could end up on a Rogue Trader's vessel, or (under the right circumstances) even under the command of the Rogue Trader directly. Not limited to being excommunicated, going renegade, serving penance in the fringes of the Imperium, acting as a liason between the Rogue Trader and the Chapter in question, and so on.

And damn, I'm still waiting for a full Xenos supplement, focusing on playable Xenos careers and backgrounds, specifically Eldar (primarily Corsair & Exodite), Dark Eldar (which we got a taste of in Into the Storm) and Orks. Unfortunately it is unlikely we'll ever get that, since part of this has been covered in previous supplements. But it really should have it's own book, and saying that xenos are not meant to be played is just.. so wrong. Sanctioned or otherwise.


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#6 PantsCommander

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:32 AM

I don't think you are going to get a fully realized Xenos player option as a supplement, if anything it would be it's own game line entirely. The problem with that is do you pick one Xenos race or try to incorporate all of them, which would make a coherant storyline impossible. I think there's enough info between books from all lines to do a playable Xenos character, though, just would take a little work.



#7 Kasatka

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:04 AM

Between the player options in Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Black Crusade and Only War and the supplements for all them there are all races in 40k covered, easy enough to convert any into playable options.


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#8 weaver95

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 07:55 AM

regarding Dark Eldar - while there ARE rules out there that allow for player character Dark Eldar…they are NOT 'nice people'.  keep in mind that permitting the Xenos into your camapign WILL change the tone of your game.  Imperial culture is xenophobic and in many cases, that fear/hatred is justified.  especially in the case of Dark Eldar, who feed on the pain and suffering of other sentients.  let me hit that point again - dark eldar FEED ON PAIN AND SUFFERING.  it's not an option for them, they HAVE to hurt people, torture and maim them because if they don't…they wither and die themselves.  that's going to have a negative impact on your ship, crew and/or colony building activities.  while it might be fun for a short story arc, Dark Eldar are largely incompatable with most (if not all) long term RT campaigns.  I'd let someone play a dark eldar in a game of black crusade, no problem…but if they wanted to play ANY alien in RT, then i'd make sure - as GM - to enforce all the downsides that come with playing an alien in a hostile xenophobic Imperial culture that hates and fear them.  And Dark Eldar would cause more trouble than most….



#9 HappyDaze

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 01:13 PM

Everyone suffers. A dark eldar can feed without causing any harm - just have him walk through the harshest working areas of the ship or referee the resolution arenas. Not that most will want to stop there, but there are always black decks to clear.

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#10 Alox

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 04:26 AM

If you really want an eldar it would only require a little rework of the current dark elder / ork / kroot rules. I am sure its doable.

Its actually much harder to get a Space Marine integrated into a RT game. The death watch rules simply works with a complety different xp progression rate (I havent analyzed it properly, but around my initial estimate is they progress about half speed of RT characters). But there are some rules in DH demon hunter you could draw inspiration from, as those space marine rules might be more compatible with rogue trader.

Lore wise, it is also easier to include a sanctioned alien than explaining why a space marine should be on the space ship. No one cares about the alien, its all about the purity of the rogue trader, but the presence of a space marine will generate questions up many echelons of power.

An alien rogue trader is of course completely impossible…



#11 HappyDaze

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 07:22 PM

Alox said:

An alien rogue trader is of course completely impossible…

In a universe where you can have a half-eldar chief librarian astropath with 20/20 vision, then the impossible can happen.


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#12 Kasatka

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 05:30 AM

Alox said:

If you really want an eldar it would only require a little rework of the current dark elder / ork / kroot rules. I am sure its doable.

Its actually much harder to get a Space Marine integrated into a RT game. The death watch rules simply works with a complety different xp progression rate (I havent analyzed it properly, but around my initial estimate is they progress about half speed of RT characters). But there are some rules in DH demon hunter you could draw inspiration from, as those space marine rules might be more compatible with rogue trader.

Lore wise, it is also easier to include a sanctioned alien than explaining why a space marine should be on the space ship. No one cares about the alien, its all about the purity of the rogue trader, but the presence of a space marine will generate questions up many echelons of power.

An alien rogue trader is of course completely impossible…

Well thats a bit incorrect - they start at much higher XP and their options cost a little more, but they are much more potent at what they do. In fact there is the Kill Marine alternate rank which is designed to simulate a lone deathwatch marine that has been assigned to a group of humans such as Rogue Traders. This could be through favours the RT has called in or it could be that the kill marine has requested transport in exchange for the RT getting some extra muscle along the way.

Obviously marines fit easily into Dark Heresy as the Deathwatch is the chamber militant of the ordo xenos, and the Grey Knights are for Ordo Malleus - and their rules already exist!


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#13 Zenoth16

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 06:27 AM

ThunderBear said:

 

I have some players that are interested in playing other races at some point in RT. A couple want to be able to try out Eldar and Astartes. Is there a set of rules for RT to show racial differences?

 

 

What I would do is respec the dark eldar and pull one of the chaos space marine characters from black crusade and have him rank up on the arch-militant career path. Characters in BC = 7000 exp, RT = 5000 exp, where as DH = 13,000 exp. So all you have to do is either put the BC character in dept 2000 exp or give everyone else the 2000.



#14 Cpt. Harkonnen

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 09:19 PM

I think for an inexperianced GM with limited knowledge of the 40k Universe should stick to the Core Book untill he gains a better understanding of 40k Lore. 



#15 Dark Bunny Lord

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:28 AM

Concerning Space Marines in an RT game… this is not even remotely difficult to do. You might have to **** with the fluff a bit if the campaign is going to last a long time as typically a powerful Rogue Trader might only be able to aqcuisitions ones aid for a time but it's certainly feesible (especially if the Space Marine takes the "kill marine" advance).

The kill marine advance noted also shows that you needn't make them play a RT class, they can perfectly well play a class from Deathwatch, there are actually rules that show the amount of experience it takes a marine to level up is higher than that of what a Rogue trader character starts with and similarly what a Dark Heresy characters starts with is less than both the other two (haven't seen the only war characters yet but I'm sure it's the same there).
The only catch here is that if you want all the characters around the same exp amount you should start them off at whatever exp the rank 1 of a deathwatch character is (which admittedly is a fairly high rank to start). The only rule tweaks you really need to do is decide whether or not the Space Marine will solely be using the Rogue Traders profit factor or if they'll still be recieving gear "per mission" as they do in death watch (as a GM I'd likely just rule the former to place the characters on a slightly more level equipment field).



#16 Cpt. Harkonnen

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 09:34 PM

Space Marine weapons do SICK amount of damage and thier armor is better than anything a Rogue Trader could ever get, even heavy power armor only lasts 1d5 hours. I truly think that Space Marines are WAY over powered to be a viable playable career in Rogue Trader. And when you start planning encounters, unless your willing to wipe your party, theres not much that can hurt a Space Marine that wont outright kill the rest of the group of mere mortals.  And if you throw a few "light" encounters at them, the Space Marine is going to kill it in the 1st shot or 1st swing of his very large chain sword or power sword.  I would like to say again that Space Marines have no place in a Rogue Trader game.  If your group wants to play Space Marines, go play Death Watch.

On a side note, I have no idea why people are trying to mesh Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Death Watch in to the same game.  Each game is played diffrently and even though its the same system, the individual games do not mesh well together.  Rogue trader Characters are OP in a Dark Heresy game same a Death Watch character is OP in a Rogue Trader game.

Im sorry but I can not stress how over powered a Death Watch character is compared to a Rogue Trader character, nothing short of heavy weapons is going to hurt the Space Marine, the same heavy weapons are going to make a mess of the Rogue Trader characters, the balanced is just not there. Even throwing Eldar with thier high Pen weapons at the Space Marine is going to chew threw the Rogue Traders. 

 

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#17 WhiteLycan

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 03:37 AM

Sorry but you're making space marines out to be a hell of a lot tougher than they really are. Yes, they're ridiculously tough and resilient, but no, they're not invincible. Give me an Explorator with experience equalling the starting experience of a deathwatch space marine and I'll give you a dead space marine. Explorators can get Unnatural Strength (how many times?), Unnatural Toughness, ridiculously high base scores in both of those stats, 24/7 power armor (Dragon Scale), badass weapons (omnissian axe 2d10+4, 6 pen or power fist 2d10 plus 1x unnatural strength and 9 pen). A good magos militant can kill a space marine in one hit.

If you want space marines in your game, go for it. Just pay attention to balance and don't let other players feel left out because the space marine kills everything. Don't let anyone tell you what you can and cant do in your own game ::looks at Harkonnen::

An example of solving the problem: Have one or two big guys in the fight that the space marine knows he should focus on while the rogue trader career players focus on the smaller (not easy, just smaller) guys.



#18 SirFrog

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 06:53 AM

WhiteLycan said:

Explorators can get Unnatural Strength (how many times?), Unnatural Toughness,

From WHERE? Unnatural Strength x2 can be gotten by Best Quality Synthetic Muscle Grafts, and otherwise you can only get Unnatural Strength and Unnatural Toughness from the Mutation Table.

Also, Power Fists add you SBx2 independant of Unnatural Strength, which means that a guy with Strength 45 and Unnatural Strength x2 would do 2d10+16



#19 Cpt. Harkonnen

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:17 PM

Wow WhiteLycan, you are naive!  Making the Adeptus Astartes not as tough as what they really are?  Are you serious? A starting Astartes is 13000 XP, that would be Rank 4 Explorator, and just barely at that.  Now, not sure what kind of candy giving GM you got but for you to have Unnatural Strength, is a bit out of the possible. Heres an example:

My starting space Marine stats: WS 41, BS 37, S 46 (8), T 40 (8), Ag 39, Int 42, Per 45, WP 44, Fel 38

Now those are my stats BEFORE I chose a career, chapter, power armor history and/or special gear.

Lets say I go with the good old Ultra Marines, I get +5 to any 2 Characteristics of my choice, I go with WS +5 and Str +5 now my WS is a 46 and Str of 51, your best possible at Rank 3 would be 65 and lets say you got lucky during character generation and it’s a 70. So your 70 vs. my starting 46.. but WAIT I’m not done yet.

After choosing Chapter: WS 46, BS 37, S 51 (10), T 40 (8), Ag 39, Int 42, Per 45, WP 44, Fel 38

Now I get to choose my Specialty, I go with Assault Marine, now I get Swift Attack, that’s 2 attacks per round to your 1.

Now I don my Power Armor, which don’t forget I no longer count as Hulking thanks to my black carapace implant. And a History of +5 WS and -5 BS

WS 51, BS 32, S 71(10), T 40(8), Ag 39, Int 42, Per 45, WP 44, Fel 38

Now I get to spend 1000 XP to flush out my Assault Marine, and seeing as there’s a nasty Heretek out there who thinks he can best me, I’ll dump most of it in to my WS and Strength, with a few random points left over for whatever.

WS 61, BS 32, S 76 (10), T 40 (8), Ag 39, Int 42, Per 45, WP 44, Fel 38

Now assuming I have on average 4 Fate Points, I’m going to use Swift Attack and Killing Strike in the same round. That’s 2 attacks you can’t parry or dodge. So you’re going to take 1d10+13 Pen 4 Tearing damage. Your Armor can only soak 4 of that and your Toughness and Machine 1 Trait can soak.. let’s say another 5, your only soaking 9 points out of 1d10+13 TEARING. Your Heretek is not going to last very long against my Space Marine. And with a WS of 61 and parry of 71, there’s a good chance your ONE attack a round will never even land.

 

You would have better lucking making an Arch-Militant with the Melee Specialty going against an Astrates than your pitiful Tech-Priest, and if you did go heavy Melee Explorator, you'd be sacrificing a lot of skills and talents that make them what they are, tech savvy gurus.



#20 Amazing Larry

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 10:38 PM

Hey unrelated I don't see it in any of the books I have in front of me but are there established rules for incorporating Ogryn or Ratlings into Rogue Trader as either NPCs or players? The reason I'm asking is the typical mook can't break through my Ork player's toughness bonus worth half a fart so I thought I'd maybe tailor a special Ogryn NPC nemesis for him to fight in an upcoming module finale.






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