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Where did class 'ranks' go?


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#1 grff

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 02:50 AM

I've played a fair bit of Dark Heresy and have aquired my nice new copy of Only War and there seems to be no mention of ranks either in the class section or when converting games.  Is my book missing a section or does each class just pick new skills and talents now without restriction by rank (and cost indicated by aptitude)?



#2 Kharol

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 03:21 AM

Ranks have been done away with entirely.  Any Talent, Skill, or Characteristic Advance can be taken by any character, with cost dictated by Aptitudes.



#3 Drop Bear 2.0

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:51 AM

Ok that makes me a little bit iffy about picking up OW, I've got some players who on occasion turn Munchkin and when they do they love their Extra Chease, this lossning of the structuere looks like it may be open to abuse by those sort of players.



#4 LuciusT

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:39 PM

Drop Bear 2.0 said:

Ok that makes me a little bit iffy about picking up OW, I've got some players who on occasion turn Munchkin and when they do they love their Extra Chease, this lossning of the structuere looks like it may be open to abuse by those sort of players.

The structure isn't actually that loose. The Aptitude system really does restrict characters to skills and talents relevant to their roles while providing concrete guidelines for buying skills and talents outside of those roles without the nebulous "Elite Advance" system from Dark Heresy. It just saves on pages and pages of charts and allows somewhat more "organic" character development.



#5 Eldartank

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:14 AM

From what I've seen, there don't appear to be any specific "ranks" for characters in Only War.  You just buy whatever Skills/Talents/Stat Increases you are able to, the only restrictions being that some of them need certain prerequisites (like needing another skill first, or needing a certain stat at a certain level, etc).  And the cost is based on how many of the Aptitudes you have for that specific Stat/Skill/Talent.

It is still relatively easy to compare your Only War character to a Dark Heresy character - Just look at the Experience Points you've already spent on your Dark Heresy character, and he will be equal in rank to a Dark Heresy character who has spent a similar number of points.

One more thing to add - I assume that in Only War, both Specialist and non-Specialist characters are assumed to have spent 600 points when character creation is finished, even though non-Specialists get 600 points to spend and Specialists only get 300 points to spend.  Specialists already have extra abilities to start with which would explain why they only get 300 points to spend starting out.



#6 Questionable Methods

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:31 AM

Drop Bear 2.0 said:

Ok that makes me a little bit iffy about picking up OW, I've got some players who on occasion turn Munchkin and when they do they love their Extra Chease, this lossning of the structuere looks like it may be open to abuse by those sort of players.

I was also skeptical at first, but trust me in that this is a good thing.  After making at least a dozen characters in short order for the one-shot I hosted last Saturday, I can definitively say it makes things much faster and more efficient.  Almost everything you need to advance characters is on page 102 or 103.  The only outliers are psychic powers and the chart for talents.

Considering the fast, brutal, and dirty lives of Guardsman having a quick character creation is essential. 

As for munchkinism, I think it is harder to do with this system.  So long as you keep a fair hand on the XP rewards and what the player's want to requisition, then it shouldn't be a problem.  Those that want to min max like hell can go ahead and try.  They will just wind up with some very big gaps in what their character can do that will inevitably lead to their swift demise. 



#7 Droma

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 07:32 PM

I've been running a game using the only war rules for a while now and I haven't found anything that is overpowered the way dark heresy can quickly get. Myself and one of my players are both power gamers and we haven't yet managed to break the system yet. The aptitude system makes it very difficult for people to aquire all the best options.

The most broken thing we've managed to come up with is a storm trooper with the penitent homeworld quickly grabbing 50 toughness, fearless, then dumping xp into agility and dodge.



#8 Radwraith

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 08:24 PM

Eldartank said:

From what I've seen, there don't appear to be any specific "ranks" for characters in Only War.  You just buy whatever Skills/Talents/Stat Increases you are able to, the only restrictions being that some of them need certain prerequisites (like needing another skill first, or needing a certain stat at a certain level, etc).  And the cost is based on how many of the Aptitudes you have for that specific Stat/Skill/Talent.

It is still relatively easy to compare your Only War character to a Dark Heresy character - Just look at the Experience Points you've already spent on your Dark Heresy character, and he will be equal in rank to a Dark Heresy character who has spent a similar number of points.

One more thing to add - I assume that in Only War, both Specialist and non-Specialist characters are assumed to have spent 600 points when character creation is finished, even though non-Specialists get 600 points to spend and Specialists only get 300 points to spend.  Specialists already have extra abilities to start with which would explain why they only get 300 points to spend starting out.

Just a quick note here; It says in the sidebar that an OW char. is the (rough) equivalent of a 2000 pt  DH character.



#9 Eldartank

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 07:32 AM

Radwraith said:

Eldartank said:

 

From what I've seen, there don't appear to be any specific "ranks" for characters in Only War.  You just buy whatever Skills/Talents/Stat Increases you are able to, the only restrictions being that some of them need certain prerequisites (like needing another skill first, or needing a certain stat at a certain level, etc).  And the cost is based on how many of the Aptitudes you have for that specific Stat/Skill/Talent.

It is still relatively easy to compare your Only War character to a Dark Heresy character - Just look at the Experience Points you've already spent on your Dark Heresy character, and he will be equal in rank to a Dark Heresy character who has spent a similar number of points.

One more thing to add - I assume that in Only War, both Specialist and non-Specialist characters are assumed to have spent 600 points when character creation is finished, even though non-Specialists get 600 points to spend and Specialists only get 300 points to spend.  Specialists already have extra abilities to start with which would explain why they only get 300 points to spend starting out.

 

 

Just a quick note here; It says in the sidebar that an OW char. is the (rough) equivalent of a 2000 pt  DH character.

Thanks for the info.    :)

 



#10 Droma

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:26 AM

From experience that sounds about right.



#11 borithan

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:37 PM

Radwraith said:

Just a quick note here; It says in the sidebar that an OW char. is the (rough) equivalent of a 2000 pt  DH character.

Which I personally doubt, at least if a Dark heresy character specialises, but hey.

I personally am not so keen on the openess. The rank system did mean that some talents could just be made quite powerful, and their access could be limited by their rank requirement. Now the only barrier is cost (Which may be major enough in some cases), which means several talents have had to be rebalanced, and I personally feel it will lead to a homogonisation of certain aspects of people's characters.



#12 Radwraith

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 06:12 PM

borithan said:

Radwraith said:

 

Just a quick note here; It says in the sidebar that an OW char. is the (rough) equivalent of a 2000 pt  DH character.

 

Which I personally doubt, at least if a Dark heresy character specialises, but hey.

Remember: A DH character gets none of the perks for regiment or commanding officer. Further; Their starting gear is considerably more limited than a OW guardsman. The character's class (Arbiter, assassin etc.) could easily be thought of as his specialization. (Plushy did an excellent job with this!).



#13 borithan

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:42 PM

Ok, yes, gear wise the Guardsmen will certainly outweigh a DH character, as them seem to get as standard what is pretty much the best gear available to starting DH characters, plus at least some characters will have other stuff on top of that.

And yes, an OW character will probably have more talents than a lower level Dark Heresy character, and probably generally slightly higher stats (due to the wide ranging small bonuses with far fewer attendant penalties), but they have less control of them initially (every player will have the same ones for their regiment , and many of their xp costs are greater once actually choosing their xp spend. I still think a 2000 DH character could out perform a OW character in their specialist area. As generalists, the OW characters will probably do better though, as they will be more likely to have random tricks outside their specialist area (thanks to Regiment talents etc).

This is fairly similar, but probably closer to equal, to what is said about RT characters. Those are said to be the equivalent to 4000 xp Dark Heresy character, but gear and resources aside, a 4000xp Dark Heresy character would wipe the floor with a RT character in the same specialisation. However, as generalists RT characters will outperform DH characters at that point.






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