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Is Stealth lost if caught in the Assault Missile blast radius?


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#1 Stormtrooper721

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:39 PM

Say two ships are within range 1 of one another. Ship A has Stealth. Ship B is hit by an Assault Missile and so Ship A, though not hit directly, still takes a damage for being within range 1 of the Assault Missile strike. Does Ship A lose its Stealth upgrade even though it was not hit directly?

I wouldn't think so as technically it was not "hit" by an attack, though it did suffer damage from an attack on another ship.

 


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#2 godofcheese

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:48 PM

Stormtrooper721 said:

Say two ships are within range 1 of one another. Ship A has Stealth. Ship B is hit by an Assault Missile and so Ship A, though not hit directly, still takes a damage for being within range 1 of the Assault Missile strike. Does Ship A lose its Stealth upgrade even though it was not hit directly?

I wouldn't think so as technically it was not "hit" by an attack, though it did suffer damage from an attack on another ship.

 

 

Interesting question, and one I think will definitely need a FAQ entry. My inkling would be that you lose stealth, but would have no objections if it was FAQ'd the other way.



#3 dbmeboy

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:55 PM

Being "hit" is specifically defined in the rules and is different than taking damage. Taking the splash damage does not meet the definition and would not count as being hit. Stealth stays.

#4 ziggy2000

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 07:23 PM

To further back up dbmeboy's statement, the wording of Stealth Device says "if you are hit by an attack". In the case of splash damage, you were not hit, the other guy was.

 



#5 TCBC Freak

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 04:47 AM

I think I'd go the other way. Here's part of the reason why, either Hit and damage are connected or they arn't. I've seen many threads that say that Luke as an upgrade on the Falcon lets you re-roll your dice (cost 7, Rebel Only, After you perform an attack that does not hit, immediately perform a primary weapon attack. You may change 1 Focus result into a Hit result. You cannot perform another attack this round) people have been saying that even if you rolled a "hit" mark but the enemy evaded thus doing no damage you get to re-roll; thus making "hit" as a rule linked to damage. Therefor if you take damage you are hit, if you didn't take damage (despite rolling a Hit on the dice) you didn't "hit." This is strang to me because when you target lock you re-roll dice that miss and didn't "hit" before damage thus making it not tied to damage (you can't spend a target lock to re-roll after an enemy evades because now you've "missed," can you?). So you need to sit down with your other players and make a rulling until the FAQ comes out, is a Hit tied to damage.

Because to now say that a ship with stealth isn't "hit" because it wasn't the target seems a little hypocritical and trying to have two rules that are opposite work for you despite the fact that you then make them contradictory in how they define Hit. Is a Hit tied to damage or not? If no then you are not hit by splash damage and thus don't lose stealth, however, then Luke cannot re-roll if a dice rolled a hit (or crit) mark on the dice even if it was evaded. If yes Hit is tied to damage then you lose stealth and Luke can re-roll those dice that are rolled as hit marks but are evaded.


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#6 dbmeboy

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 08:04 AM

TCBC Freak said:

 

I think I'd go the other way. Here's part of the reason why, either Hit and damage are connected or they arn't. I've seen many threads that say that Luke as an upgrade on the Falcon lets you re-roll your dice (cost 7, Rebel Only, After you perform an attack that does not hit, immediately perform a primary weapon attack. You may change 1 Focus result into a Hit result. You cannot perform another attack this round) people have been saying that even if you rolled a "hit" mark but the enemy evaded thus doing no damage you get to re-roll; thus making "hit" as a rule linked to damage. Therefor if you take damage you are hit, if you didn't take damage (despite rolling a Hit on the dice) you didn't "hit." This is strang to me because when you target lock you re-roll dice that miss and didn't "hit" before damage thus making it not tied to damage (you can't spend a target lock to re-roll after an enemy evades because now you've "missed," can you?). So you need to sit down with your other players and make a rulling until the FAQ comes out, is a Hit tied to damage.

Because to now say that a ship with stealth isn't "hit" because it wasn't the target seems a little hypocritical and trying to have two rules that are opposite work for you despite the fact that you then make them contradictory in how they define Hit. Is a Hit tied to damage or not? If no then you are not hit by splash damage and thus don't lose stealth, however, then Luke cannot re-roll if a dice rolled a hit (or crit) mark on the dice even if it was evaded. If yes Hit is tied to damage then you lose stealth and Luke can re-roll those dice that are rolled as hit marks but are evaded.

 

 

You seem to be missing the important thing: the definition of "Hit" from the rules, pg 12:

"During this step, players compare their dice results
to determine whether the defender was hit.
To determine whether the defender was hit, compare
the number of [evade], [hit], and [critical hit] results in the common
area. For each [evade] result, cancel (remove) one [hit] or [critical hit]
result from the attack roll. All [hit] results must be
canceled before any [critical hit] results may be canceled.
If there is at least one uncanceled [hit] or [critical hit] result
remaining, the defender is considered hit
(see page
13). If all [hit] and [critical hit] result are canceled, the attack
misses
and the defender does not suffer any damage."

 

That is why Luke can be used to get a 2nd attack even if the first attack roll contained [hit] or [critical hit] dice results.  If they were canceled, then the attack is considered to have missed, not hit.  Similarly, taking splash damage from Assault Missile does not meet the definition of being hit as the ships taking the splash damage were not the defender.

 

Edit: in rereading your post, I think I see where your confusion is coming from.  Dice do not "hit" or "miss."  Thus, your statement about using target lock to reroll dice that didn't "hit" before damage is off base.  The attack itself can hit or miss, but each die just has a result of [hit symbol], [critical hit symbol], [focus symbol], or [blank].  Being Hit is indeed tied to damage, in that being hit causes damage.  However, not all damage is the result of being hit (damage can also come from obstacles, some critical hit cards, the upcoming Daredevil Elite Pilot Talent, and the Assault Missile splash damage, for a few examples).  This is a perfectly logically consistent statement and not at all hypocritical as you try to suggest, along the same lines that all labrador retrievers are dogs, but not all dogs are labrador retrievers.



#7 TCBC Freak

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:55 AM

I think we understand each other. I was stating that it can be justified to go either way; and so I was saying that the OP and those the OP plays with just need to pick before they play if it does until it get cleared up. There is a way it could be confusing for new people because the symbol on the die is called a hit, but it isn't a Hit for dealing with many of the rules, but for some it is. I understand your point and I think I now agree in fact as I was miss-remembering target lock a bit but just read it again (you can re-roll any dice you want, so if you want you can re-roll a 'hit mark' in hopes of getting a c'ritical hit mark', target lock has nothing to do with what your dice show), you have a clear argument. Lucky for me I don't yet have any wave 2 stuff so it is not a big deal to me yet.


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#8 dbmeboy

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:34 AM

TCBC Freak said:

 There is a way it could be confusing for new people because the symbol on the die is called a hit, but it isn't a Hit for dealing with many of the rules, but for some it is.

Actually, the symbol on the die is never called a "hit" icon in the rules.  We refer to it as such because it's easy, but as far as the rules are concerned the icon is just itself and is used to determine if a defending ship is hit and how much damage a hit ship would suffer (as well playing a roll in several critical damage cards).  In the game rules (and thus in any cards that refer to hitting or missing), "hit" has only one definition which I posted in my last post.



#9 ArcticSnake

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 04:19 PM

A defender is only considered hit only after all the dice results have been compared and the relevant icons matched off and cancelled.

If it makes it easier to grasp the concept, lets us name the black explosion and white explosion markers on the dice as "potential damage" and "potential crit damage".  For example, you may roll a black and a white so you could say you rolled a "potential damage" and a "potential crit damage". If the defender rolls one evade, the "potential damage" get cancelled. Since the "potential crit" got through(was not cancelled), the defender is now considered Hit.

Same case with two "potential damage", if one of the "potential damages" get cancelled, one still goes through and the defender is considered Hit.

It's a Miss if all "potential damage/potential crit damage" get cancelled.

We have just verified if the defender is Hit or was Missed.  However, "potential damage/potential crit damage" should still be called "potential damage/ potential crit damage" at this point.

Then comes the Damage phase, where the Hit ship suffers damage based on each "potential damage" or "potential crit damage" that were not cancelled. This would be when the "potential damage" become a damage each and the "potential crit damage" become a critical damage each.

The beauty of calling the icons "potential damage/potential crit damage" is that you should never get to confuse the icons with the game term Hit itself.

You may also try calling them "potential hits" or "potential crits" if that is more convenient, as long as you remember the principle behind calling it "potential"


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#10 ArcticSnake

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 04:23 PM

To get back to the OP's question, since the term hit was defined in the rulebook, Ship A did not get hit by an attack at all and does not lose stealth.


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#11 TCBC Freak

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:34 AM

dbmeboy said:

TCBC Freak said:

 

 There is a way it could be confusing for new people because the symbol on the die is called a hit, but it isn't a Hit for dealing with many of the rules, but for some it is.

 

Actually, the symbol on the die is never called a "hit" icon in the rules.  We refer to it as such because it's easy, but as far as the rules are concerned the icon is just itself and is used to determine if a defending ship is hit and how much damage a hit ship would suffer (as well playing a roll in several critical damage cards).  In the game rules (and thus in any cards that refer to hitting or missing), "hit" has only one definition which I posted in my last post.

When you watch the video tutorial the narator calls the symbols a hit and a critical hit in video 3 I think, the combat video. Not trying to argue just saying where I got that the symbol is called a hit by something 'offical' because in the rules it never calls them a hit. So it would only confuse someone who watched the videos or bassed it on what folks call it here I guess, it just shows the marks in the rule books.


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#12 dbmeboy

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:00 AM

TCBC Freak said:

When you watch the video tutorial the narator calls the symbols a hit and a critical hit in video 3 I think, the combat video. Not trying to argue just saying where I got that the symbol is called a hit by something 'offical' because in the rules it never calls them a hit. So it would only confuse someone who watched the videos or bassed it on what folks call it here I guess, it just shows the marks in the rule books.

Fair enough, I hadn't watched the video.  Still, as far as rules terminology goes, being "hit" has nothing to do with rolling hit/damage/whatever you want to call the symbol results on the attack dice.  All that cares about is whether there were any uncanceled symbols left after defense is rolled and modified.



#13 jimtullis

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:56 AM

TCBC Freak said:

TCBC Freak said:

When you watch the video tutorial the narator calls the symbols a hit and a critical hit in video 3 I think, the combat video. Not trying to argue just saying where I got that the symbol is called a hit by something 'offical' because in the rules it never calls them a hit. So it would only confuse someone who watched the videos or bassed it on what folks call it here I guess, it just shows the marks in the rule books.

Is this the same video that shows ships hovering along the manuever templates, instead of being placed at the end of the template?

I think the rulebook shoulld govern over the videos. Which I think is what TCBC and DBME are both saying.






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