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Edge Battle - Official Ruling?


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#1 BD Flory

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 08:28 AM

The resolution of the edge battle in the case of all defenders being eliminated during seems ambiguous.

The rules state on page 18:

 

"A player must control at least one participating unit 
to place cards in the edge battle. If the defending 
player controls no defending units, the attacking player 
automatically wins the edge battle (although he still has 
the option to place cards into the edge battle if 
he so desires)."
 
However, since Fate cards are resolved before the Edge Battle is finished (which are steps 3 & 4 of the process), this creates the possibility that Heat of Battle eliminates the only defending units after the defender has already placed cards into the Edge Stack.
 
It seems to me that the *intent* is that the attacker wins the edge battle automatically if the defender can't place cards into the edge stack because he has no units in the engagement, but the RAW indicates that the attacker automatically wins the edge battle if the defender controls no units. The fact that the outcome of the Edge Battle is not determined until step 4 (after defending units elimanted by heat of battle would be gone) isn't relevant to the RAW.
 
I *suspect* it was supposed to be written as follows:
 
"A player must control at least one participating unit 
to place cards in the edge battle. If the defending 
player cannot place cards in the edge battle because he
controls no defending units, the attacking player 
automatically wins the edge battle (although he still has 
the option to place cards into the edge battle if 
he so desires)."
 
It would be clearer if the auto-win clause was included in the "Place Edge Cards" section of the Resolve Edge Battle rules, as it would then be apparent that the rule only applies during that step, but since the rule is placed in the general "FIGHT EDGE BATTLE" section, it could apply to each step of the edge battle.

I'm sure this has come up before -- has anyone seen an official answer?



#2 AlKusanagi

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:02 AM

I'd say the Edge Battle happens as planned. The defender has already committed cards to it and can still stymie the attacker by at least limiting his edge icons, although the attacker will definitely get the unopposed bonus at the end.



#3 BD Flory

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:40 AM

That's my thinking as well, but it's ambiguous thanks to the placement of the auto-win rule outside the step framework of the edge battle.



#4 daedhel

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:15 AM

If I may, i would use this post to ask another question about the edge battles…

Tha manual says Players do no stop placing cards into their edge until both players CONSECUTIVELY pass

There is an example of my doubte

player 1: place a card

player 2: place a card

player 1: pass

player 2: place a card.

Then, player 1 decides to keep placing cards (he maybe rethinks about it)

player 1: place a card

player 2. pass

Then, player 1 now passes

player 2 have no option then to put any card…

So, two questions…i think that the rules wanted to say that a player that passes, can then place a card if the other player do not pass.

And then, if player 2 passes, then player 1 could pass and the edging battle will finish without letting player 2 do nothing..

Am i explain right? Understand my doubt?

Thanks a lot.



#5 alpha5099

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:30 AM

I'm not entirely sure I understand your confusion, but I'll try and explain as best I can.

Player 1 and Player 2 have both played one card into their edge stacks. Player 1 plays another card. Player 2 passes. Player 1, as always, has two options: play another card or not. If she passes, the edge battle is over; the two players have consecutively passed. If she plays another card into her edge stack, the decision goes back to Player 2; whichever decision he reaches (play or pass), the edge battle continues. Let's say Player 2 plays another card; if Player 1 then passes, the edge battle is not yet over. Both players have now passed, but not consecutively. After Player 1 passes, though, if Player 2 also chooses to pass, then the edge battle is over.

Does that address your questions?



#6 daedhel

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:11 AM

I understand but is not what i meant.

IF player 1 is the actual player, i understand that "a round" ends when player 2 ends…then again to player1 etc etc…

I'm saying that a round can ends with player 1, when, in a round before, player 2 passes.

Playr1-Playr2.

CARD-CARD

PASS-CARD

Player 1 change his/her mind and place a card.

CARD-PASS

And now Player 1 wants to PASS again-

PASS-…

Player 2, can put a card or the edge battle is finished for the two consecutively passes? but in different rounds

The two consecutives passes have to be in the SAME ROUND?



#7 Vaapad

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:16 AM

In your example the edge battle is over, as both players have passed consecutively.  There is no further requirement regarding "rounds" of placing cards.


"And for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons."

#8 BD Flory

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:20 AM

daedhel said:

I understand but is not what i meant.

IF player 1 is the actual player, i understand that "a round" ends when player 2 ends…then again to player1 etc etc…

I'm saying that a round can ends with player 1, when, in a round before, player 2 passes.

Playr1-Playr2.

CARD-CARD

PASS-CARD

Player 1 change his/her mind and place a card.

CARD-PASS

And now Player 1 wants to PASS again-

PASS-…

Player 2, can put a card or the edge battle is finished for the two consecutively passes? but in different rounds

The two consecutives passes have to be in the SAME ROUND?

There are no rounds in the edge battle. If 2 players pass consecutively, no matter who passed first or second, the edge battle is over.



#9 Vaapad

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:21 AM

BD Flory said:

The resolution of the edge battle in the case of all defenders being eliminated during seems ambiguous.

The rules state on page 18:

 

"A player must control at least one participating unit 
to place cards in the edge battle. If the defending 
player controls no defending units, the attacking player 
automatically wins the edge battle (although he still has 
the option to place cards into the edge battle if 
he so desires)."
 
However, since Fate cards are resolved before the Edge Battle is finished (which are steps 3 & 4 of the process), this creates the possibility that Heat of Battle eliminates the only defending units after the defender has already placed cards into the Edge Stack.
 
It seems to me that the *intent* is that the attacker wins the edge battle automatically if the defender can't place cards into the edge stack because he has no units in the engagement, but the RAW indicates that the attacker automatically wins the edge battle if the defender controls no units. The fact that the outcome of the Edge Battle is not determined until step 4 (after defending units elimanted by heat of battle would be gone) isn't relevant to the RAW.
 
I *suspect* it was supposed to be written as follows:
 
"A player must control at least one participating unit 
to place cards in the edge battle. If the defending 
player cannot place cards in the edge battle because he
controls no defending units, the attacking player 
automatically wins the edge battle (although he still has 
the option to place cards into the edge battle if 
he so desires)."
 
It would be clearer if the auto-win clause was included in the "Place Edge Cards" section of the Resolve Edge Battle rules, as it would then be apparent that the rule only applies during that step, but since the rule is placed in the general "FIGHT EDGE BATTLE" section, it could apply to each step of the edge battle.

I'm sure this has come up before -- has anyone seen an official answer?

BD Flory said:

The resolution of the edge battle in the case of all defenders being eliminated during seems ambiguous.

The rules state on page 18:

 

"A player must control at least one participating unit 
to place cards in the edge battle. If the defending 
player controls no defending units, the attacking player 
automatically wins the edge battle (although he still has 
the option to place cards into the edge battle if 
he so desires)."
 
However, since Fate cards are resolved before the Edge Battle is finished (which are steps 3 & 4 of the process), this creates the possibility that Heat of Battle eliminates the only defending units after the defender has already placed cards into the Edge Stack.
 
It seems to me that the *intent* is that the attacker wins the edge battle automatically if the defender can't place cards into the edge stack because he has no units in the engagement, but the RAW indicates that the attacker automatically wins the edge battle if the defender controls no units. The fact that the outcome of the Edge Battle is not determined until step 4 (after defending units elimanted by heat of battle would be gone) isn't relevant to the RAW.
 
I *suspect* it was supposed to be written as follows:
 
"A player must control at least one participating unit 
to place cards in the edge battle. If the defending 
player cannot place cards in the edge battle because he
controls no defending units, the attacking player 
automatically wins the edge battle (although he still has 
the option to place cards into the edge battle if 
he so desires)."
 
It would be clearer if the auto-win clause was included in the "Place Edge Cards" section of the Resolve Edge Battle rules, as it would then be apparent that the rule only applies during that step, but since the rule is placed in the general "FIGHT EDGE BATTLE" section, it could apply to each step of the edge battle.

I'm sure this has come up before -- has anyone seen an official answer?

 

as for the OP, I can see it going either way.  My guess would be that the unit-less defender can win because the context of the relevant rule deals with when a defender can place cards in be edge stack.  Consider submitting the question to FFG for an official ruling and let us know what you find out?


"And for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons."

#10 daedhel

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:26 AM

Thanks to all of you three, guys, to answer my question.



#11 BD Flory

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:37 AM

Vaapad said:

as for the OP, I can see it going either way.  My guess would be that the unit-less defender can win because the context of the relevant rule deals with when a defender can place cards in be edge stack.  Consider submitting the question to FFG for an official ruling and let us know what you find out?

That's my guess, too. I just wish they'd placed the rule within the "Place Edge Cards" step, rather than the introduction to the edge battle.

Question's already submitted to FFG. We'll see what they say.



#12 MarthWMaster

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 03:43 PM

If both sides have engaged units, but neither player plays an edge card, who wins the resulting tie, if applicable?



#13 dbmeboy

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 03:56 PM

MarthWMaster said:

If both sides have engaged units, but neither player plays an edge card, who wins the resulting tie, if applicable?

Defender wins ties, even 0-0 ties. The only exception is when there is no defending unit, in which case the attacking player automatically wins.

#14 MarthWMaster

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:10 PM

That's what I thought, but it's still very confusing. It's going to be a challenge to teach this part of the game to new players.



#15 ScottieATF

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:42 PM

MarthWMaster said:

That's what I thought, but it's still very confusing. It's going to be a challenge to teach this part of the game to new players.

Why is that confusing?  It's fairly directly stated in the rulebook in both regards.






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