Jump to content



Photo

Jol-Nar technological ability


  • Please log in to reply
24 replies to this topic

#1 Cris

Cris

    Member

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 30 December 2012 - 12:28 AM

"When executing the secondary option of the Technology strategy, you may execute both the primary and secondary abilities."

There's this implication that in order to execute the secondary ability of the Tech SC, you NEED 8 (or 6) resource points. If you don't have the necesary resources, then you cannot benefit from this special ability - is this correct?

Say another player uses Tech II, at which point the Jol-Nar player has only 5 resources available. Can the latter still use the tech ability, effectively getting for free a tech that he wouldn't be able to buy otherwise?
Yes, I know, the Jol-Nar can choose to not pay this price, but it makes sense he should have those resources available in order to have said option available. If the Jol-Nar doesn't have these resources, then he can't activate its racial tech ability, period.

Or, to get to the bottom of it: if the Jol-Nar have, say, 0 resources, can they still use their tech related ability, yes or no?

And then, as an addenda, would those resources (TCs not included) be made up of only non-exhausted planets or can they also include exhausted planets (that is, spent resources)?

Sorry for the opening a new thread, but while searching the forum for an answer to this question, I haven't found a precise answer to it.



#2 Archangelion

Archangelion

    Member

  • Members
  • 47 posts

Posted 30 December 2012 - 01:59 AM

When you activate the secondary of the Technology Strategy Card (by paying a Command Counter from your Strategy Allocation), you may activate the primary as well. You do not need to pay (or even have the resourses to pay) for the technology card that would be gained by the secondary ability. You are only required to ACTIVATE the secondary, not use it. Hope this helps.



#3 Archangelion

Archangelion

    Member

  • Members
  • 47 posts

Posted 30 December 2012 - 02:02 AM

Note that you only gain the technology from the secondary of the Tech SC if you pay for it, however.



#4 Fnoffen

Fnoffen

    Member

  • Members
  • 550 posts

Posted 30 December 2012 - 04:18 AM

I would say it depends on the wording of the tech SC. If it says "May purchase" then you would not be required to be able to pay for the secondary tech. I might be wrong, however, since it would be in line with the Jol-Nar theme as tech-nerds to be able to use their racial agility regardless of if they have any resources or not.

Pax Magnifica Bellum Gloriosum


#5 Archangelion

Archangelion

    Member

  • Members
  • 47 posts

Posted 30 December 2012 - 06:29 AM

From the official FAQ on the FFG website, downloadable for all, this should clear the issue up. I bolded the important part for quick referance.

 

Q: Could you explain how the Jol-Nar and the Xxcha abilities

work as they relate to the primary and secondary abilities of

the Strategy Card?

A: When the Jol-Nar player resolves the secondary ability of

the Technology Card, he may also (in addition) execute the

primary ability. This allows the Jol-Nar to both receive a free

Technology (for the primary ability), as well as purchase a

Technology if desired (for the secondary ability). The Jol-Nar

player may choose to receive only the free technology for the

primary ability, and choose not to pay 8 resources for a second

Technology (but the Jol-Nar must still pay a Command

Counter to resolve the secondary ability, unless they chose the

Initiative Strategy). All other players simply resolve the secondary

ability as usual. The Jol-Nar ability does not trigger a

second “round” of secondary ability resolution.



#6 Ditrii

Ditrii

    Member

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 30 December 2012 - 09:12 AM

According to the Technology 2 SC, is it not possible for the Jol-Nar to recieve 3 technologies in a single turn, if another player plays the Tech SC?

First the Jol-Nar pays a command counter and 6 resources to recieve 1 tech from the secondary,

then gets a free tech and pays 8 resources for the third tech - total 3 techs.

Is this the wrong way of doing it?



#7 Archangelion

Archangelion

    Member

  • Members
  • 47 posts

Posted 30 December 2012 - 09:37 AM

The Jol-Nar may infact gain 3 technology advances with the Technology 2 Strategy Card, as explained on page 16 of the Shattered Empire rule book.



#8 Karl_stalker

Karl_stalker

    Member

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 30 December 2012 - 06:48 PM

Archangelion said:

When you activate the secondary of the Technology Strategy Card (by paying a Command Counter from your Strategy Allocation), you may activate the primary as well. You do not need to pay (or even have the resourses to pay) for the technology card that would be gained by the secondary ability. You are only required to ACTIVATE the secondary, not use it. Hope this helps.

Right or wrong I have to disagree with this. And yes, I saw where it was answered in the Q&A. Still seems incorrect.

The Jol-Nar ability reads, "when executing the secondary ability…" By definition, execute means "carry out" or "accomplish." Accomplishing something doesn't mean starting and then not actually finishing. Therefore, by completing the process of the Secondary ability (I.e. paying the resource cost and gaining the tech) you may then activate the primary ability. 

Again, this is a personal interpretation and the way my friends and I play. :) 



#9 Cris

Cris

    Member

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:32 AM

In the FAQ it's not clear whether "choose not to pay 8 resources" implies "8 AVAILABLE resources" or "8 NON-AVAILABLE resources". Therefore my simple question still stands: if the Jol-Nar have 0 resources, can they still use their tech related ability, yes or no?

Imho common sense should dictate that those resources must exist (exhausted planet or not), otherwise an SC ability cannot be "executed". To use an example, it's a bit like asking a bank for a credit guaranteed by your existent income: you don't actually give said income to the bank, but you have to have it in order to qualify for the credit. If your income is under the value needed for the credit, then you don't get the credit.



#10 Shadow

Shadow

    Member

  • Members
  • 127 posts

Posted 31 December 2012 - 08:05 AM

The designer has mentioned in the past that Twilight 3 rules are applied as they are written.  Players may not "add or subtract" to a twilight rule just because it makes sense to them.

You just do what the rule says.

 

The FAQ clearly states that Jol nar only needs "a strategy counter" to satisfy the secondary of tech. 

Whether it makes alot of sense to say, Jolnar should also need 8 resources also … That does not matter.

It is not mentioned in the rule.

 

 

Most new players make the mistake of trying to apply "common sense"  and add things to the rules.

They start their arguement saying…"Common sense says to me……and this also should be needed".

That player has just lost his arguement, no matter what rule he is talking about.

 

Why?    Because twilight 3 rules are applied as they are written so you can do things like this.

 

House rule - Warsuns are not ships.  (Warsuns are now units like a Space dock or Space mine, etc.)

So now Warsuns can fly through other ships.  Warsuns are not affected by "Direct HIt" nor "Flank Speed"

Why?  Those rules only affect ships.  And Warsuns are no longer ships.

 

By doing only what the rule says and no more.   Some amazing things can be added to the game without getting into alot of explainations.

 

It may seem very strange that common sense is not used in interpreting the rules, but apply the rule "as it is written" is used to great effect in this game.



#11 Karl_stalker

Karl_stalker

    Member

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 31 December 2012 - 12:54 PM

Regardless of what the FAQ may say, I will continue to play the ability as it is written on the card. "Execute" being the key word. If the wording is changed to "initiate" or something similar I will have no choice but to concede. Until then, the ability is too OP if you interpret it the way you are trying to.



#12 Shadow

Shadow

    Member

  • Members
  • 127 posts

Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:14 PM

Everyone modifies this game to their likely.   That is one of the interesting aspects of this game.

Some GM's will even boost some races a little to make them stronger and nerf some other races they think are too strong.

 

But if you play a  twilight 3 game online or at a convention, Jol nar's "spend 1 strategy counter for a free tech" is the standard game play.

This rule is not in dispute for most players.

(Gamewise, Jolnar race really does need this advantage to get tech early as possible since they get beat up real badly if they are attacked early. One or two more techs can make a huge difference to a besieged Jolnar player.  That "-1 to hit" is really bad if you do not have alot of techs acquired.)

If you ever GM or are just a player in a twilight 3 game with other players you do not know; just list your rule as a homebrew rule.  This is done by twilight 3 gamers all the time to cover rules that do not like or do not accept.

 

 

 

 



#13 Karl_stalker

Karl_stalker

    Member

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 31 December 2012 - 07:16 PM

Shadow said:

Everyone modifies this game to their likely.   That is one of the interesting aspects of this game.

 

I totally agree with you there. But, to keep kicking the horse, I wish the rule read "When activating the secondary ability of the Technology Strategy Card, the Jol-Nar player may execute the Primary Ability and/or the Secondary Ability." I really feel that an "Errata" should be included in the next expansion. Especially since the group of five guys that I play with all interpreted the rule… well… wrong apparently. 

Either way, case closed. No resources are necessary. So with initiative the Jol-Nar get free tech. Couple that with the potential to unlock all the tech needed for war suns on their second turn. Even accounting for a -1, still OP.



#14 Fnoffen

Fnoffen

    Member

  • Members
  • 550 posts

Posted 31 December 2012 - 07:21 PM

I would not call Jol-Nars racial ability OP due to the simple fact that they need all the techs they can get just to get to the same combat ability as all other races, except the 'Norr, start at.

Pax Magnifica Bellum Gloriosum


#15 Cris

Cris

    Member

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 31 December 2012 - 11:56 PM

Thank you , guys, for the input. So the official position on this is that when it comes to executing their tech ability, resources are irrelevant to the jol-Nar player. Every other interpretation falls under the label of house rules.

However, wording in the FAQ and in the game and in the rulebook leaves a lot to be desired (and I'm being very diplomatic here). Nevermind though, house rules can always be applied.

Again many thanks and a Happy New Year to all :) .



#16 donpaulo

donpaulo

    Member

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 12 April 2013 - 12:17 AM

This is a good chance to ask a question from a recent "learning" game.

Another race selected the trade strategy and implemented the negotiations.

It seemed somewhat broken to have the Jol Nar then retro-actively "re" implement the trade negotiations.

We couldn't find anything at the time so we punted the primary from the Jol Nar evil web of doing everyting twice :)

 

Some clarification would be most appreciated



#17 Bowoodstock

Bowoodstock

    Member

  • Members
  • 99 posts

Posted 12 April 2013 - 12:49 PM

I'm not familiar with any rule that lets the Jol-Nar do everything twice.  Which rule are you talking about?



#18 Fnoffen

Fnoffen

    Member

  • Members
  • 550 posts

Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:01 AM

The best clarification I can come up with is that the Jol-Nar May use the Technology (7) primary when using the Technology (7) secondary. Not the Trade (4).

Pax Magnifica Bellum Gloriosum


#19 Archangelion

Archangelion

    Member

  • Members
  • 47 posts

Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:29 PM

Some issues are solved by simply reading the text on the cards word for word!



#20 Fnoffen

Fnoffen

    Member

  • Members
  • 550 posts

Posted 14 April 2013 - 09:02 PM

He might be dyslexic. Or simply not have english as a first language. In that case, reading again won't do much good. It's better if we just explain it calmly.

Pax Magnifica Bellum Gloriosum





© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS