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Why Does SWLCG Feel One-Sided?


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#1 NomadGameCenter

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 06:55 PM

Hi everyone!

I own a gaming store in Eau Claire, Wisconsin, and tonight we got to try out the SWLCG for the first time. Using the pre-built deck lists we played three games with me as the Jedi and then I opened a copy and built my own Rebel Alliance deck. I lost three games to SuperLaser Blast, and the last to basic attrition with the DS counter.

I like the game, but we were talking after and both felt that the LS has a distinct disadvantage right now. Are we missing something? I've been pondering the games on the drive home and every time I was waiting for that card, and when it came late game it was DEVESTATING, The cascading effect of destroying an objective with another in the graveyard was pretty much instant game-over for me. Four resource to destroy any objective seems, well, a tad overpowered…

I will bust open another copy tomorrow at the store and try some other deck ideas, but we have a limited following. I'm hoping we can get some organized play going soon but it's going to be an uphill struggle against MTG, L5R and Super Dungeon Explore :( Maybe I can encourage some more players to come and play, but I fear that people will see the same I saw and that the DS counter objective of DS is simply too fast right now.

I don't understand why the objectives are not the same for both sides; destroy three objective cards. As an LS player I have 12 turns to win; less if I lose the force or if I lose an objective to a first-turn SuperLaser Blast (happened first turn on game four).

I hope I'm just being dumb and missing something. I really love the game (but boy do I wish you could tap/bow cards instead of using so many counters) and we'll support it at the store as long as people want to play it!



#2 greyseerikrit

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 07:37 PM

I have to agree with you.  Played six games so far and LS has won 4 of them.  I also think losing the Death Star dial and the struggle for that matter, and make it a race to three could be better.  However, upcoming expansions may make these features more relevant.



#3 D.Knight Sevus

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:03 PM

I'm seeing a lot of this, and not exactly certain why it's happening to so many people, but not me.

I suppose part of it might be that I come from TCGs that regularly end before turn 6, so having 12 turns to win (best-case scenario) as the Light Side strikes me as generous.

Perhaps a little bit of perspective…as the Light Side player, you most likely need to do 15 Blast Damage in 12 turns, 10 if you open with Trench Run or against Heart of the Empire. If you can manage to do an average of just 2 damage a turn, you'll win on turn 8. All of your Fate cards also have priority ahead of their Dark Side equivalents, so you'll be resolving yours first. Your opponent has to deal 8-12 damage (Or 4-6 and a Superlaser Blast) to noticably accelerate the doom clock, and any units attacking your objectives aren't defending or winning Force struggles.

The important thing as a Light Side player is that you have to be willing to go on the offensive. If holding back will let you win control of the Force, that's worth it. But if you're leaving behind units to defend, the Dark Side player isn't obligated to attack you.



#4 divinityofnumber

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:06 PM

I received a copy for attending Worlds in November, and have now played many games. It does not feel one-sided to me. My advice to those who feel that way would be to reread the rule book, and think harder and in a more complex way about the mechanics in general, and the action windows more specifically. 

Of course, each deck will sometimes draw a god hand, and just roll the other side. But, on the whole, I have felt that the game is relatively well balanced with respect to LS Vs. DS. 


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#5 JustinMcBride

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:06 PM

Like other TCGs (in this case LCC), it really depends on how you build your deck. I too noticed that with the precon decks, it did feel a litle lopsided towards the darkside, however, I also noticed that the light side can really get QUICK starts. We started building actual decks and yesterday I was playing for almost a day straight with my buddy, and we saw a couple games where the light side straight up won on LS turn two, and the darkside winning on DS turn 3. It really depends on how your decks is built and your draws. The game is a BLAST to play. Its too bad that this game isn't super competetive, I would quit MTG in a heartbeat if it had a tournament structure like Magic (im a professional player in MTG). Oh well, fun side game for now :)


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#6 JustinMcBride

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:06 PM

Like other TCGs (in this case LCC), it really depends on how you build your deck. I too noticed that with the precon decks, it did feel a litle lopsided towards the darkside, however, I also noticed that the light side can really get QUICK starts. We started building actual decks and yesterday I was playing for almost a day straight with my buddy, and we saw a couple games where the light side straight up won on LS turn two, and the darkside winning on DS turn 3. It really depends on how your decks is built and your draws. The game is a BLAST to play. Its too bad that this game isn't super competetive, I would quit MTG in a heartbeat if it had a tournament structure like Magic (im a professional player in MTG). Oh well, fun side game for now :)


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#7 ScottieATF

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:17 PM

greyseerikrit said:

I have to agree with you.  Played six games so far and LS has won 4 of them.  I also think losing the Death Star dial and the struggle for that matter, and make it a race to three could be better.  However, upcoming expansions may make these features more relevant.

You need to re-read his post.  He is saying that the Dark Side has an advantage.  So exactly the opposite of your thoughts on the matter.  You do not agree with him.



#8 Magni

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:21 AM

I felt the same way about 10 games in, and i STILL feel the same way with my Rebel deck.  My jedi deck frustrates and melts face, the key and "cinematic" quality to the game comes in the edge battles when i think back on losses i think oh well i lost this edge, and that lead to a low hand + more imperial troops on there turn which killed MY objective instead of theres.  Jedi is a slower big unit based deck, but i have had hads that are Luke Skywalker + Guardian of peace on the first turn and by turn 2 my oponent cant stop me, if he defends i kill him if he stands by the side i targeted strike him its just frustrating.  But the deck is weak to sith control but puts the hurt on imperial.

All and all im just babbling, LS and DS are balanced - BUT LS has a very steep learning curve vrs DS.  Do a little test, go through and count how many units you get in a Imperial Deck, vrs a Rebel deck - rebel has about 1/3 less units than imperial but more event cards.  You also have to change much more how you play as LS then DS based on your oponents deck, i play much less conservativly vrs sith than i do vrs imperial navy.

My friend was telling me recently he could never win as the runner in A:NR when it first came out, you just have to rethink how you play.  DS is very simple in strat LS is much more annoying but get a few Guardians of peace on the table and luke and you will feel the OP.

Magni


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magni strikes with greedo for 2 unit damage to Han Solo and 1 Blast Damage.


#9 MarthWMaster

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 03:24 AM

ScottieATF said:

 

greyseerikrit said:

 

I have to agree with you.  Played six games so far and LS has won 4 of them.  I also think losing the Death Star dial and the struggle for that matter, and make it a race to three could be better.  However, upcoming expansions may make these features more relevant.

 

 

You need to re-read his post.  He is saying that the Dark Side has an advantage.  So exactly the opposite of your thoughts on the matter.  You do not agree with him.

 

 

Not only that, but statistical analysis is taking a serious hit today if a 4/2 win-loss ratio is enough of a disparity to imply a LS imbalance.  Just one additional loss for LS would have yielded a perfectly even 3/3 ratio.


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#10 Denied

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 03:41 AM

MarthWMaster said:

ScottieATF said:

 

greyseerikrit said:

 

I have to agree with you.  Played six games so far and LS has won 4 of them.  I also think losing the Death Star dial and the struggle for that matter, and make it a race to three could be better.  However, upcoming expansions may make these features more relevant.

 

 

You need to re-read his post.  He is saying that the Dark Side has an advantage.  So exactly the opposite of your thoughts on the matter.  You do not agree with him.

 

 

Not only that, but statistical analysis is taking a serious hit today if a 4/2 win-loss ratio is enough of a disparity to imply a LS imbalance.  Just one additional loss for LS would have yielded a perfectly even 3/3 ratio.

 

and here I had hoped he was being facetious about the game being imbalanced, but my simple statement is if the game feels imbalanced in any way then one of two things is true. 1) either you are bad at the game or 2) your opponents are bad at the game. 



#11 NomadGameCenter

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 03:45 AM

True, it's a small sample size and I know at least one thing we were doing wrong; we thought you could only attack once every turn. Obviously this is going to make a huge difference in the way the LS plays.

We also had a MTG mindset of "if I'm blocking an attack, you cannot hit the objective," so it's entirely possible I missed some damage on an objective that could've cost me the match. I still feel that LS is weak right now, but more games will help. I hope I get some people into the store who want to play today, but weekends seem to be dominated by MTG and L5R.



#12 LMKComaBlack

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 03:50 AM

 

DS absolutely had the advantage in the first few games.  When all you're doing is bashing your heads against each other doing 1 for 1 card trades, DS always has the clock, and that will win the game in the long haul.  I've found that a good LS stratagy is to pick your battles *very* carefully.  I like sitting back and holding the force, ping an objective a time or two, and then only engage when I am confident I can get the kill.  Since Edge ties to to the defender, I'll play 80% of the game holding back.  Save up a couple of good tricks, and you can win the game after only attacking 3 times.  I've had zero objectives with the DSD at 7 or 8, but three turns in a row I'll destroy an objective in one shot.  Yoda + Enhancements + Guardian of Peace and you'll drop an objective with a single Yoda strike.



#13 NomadGameCenter

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 04:39 AM

Denied said:

MarthWMaster said:

 

ScottieATF said:

 

greyseerikrit said:

 

I have to agree with you.  Played six games so far and LS has won 4 of them.  I also think losing the Death Star dial and the struggle for that matter, and make it a race to three could be better.  However, upcoming expansions may make these features more relevant.

 

 

You need to re-read his post.  He is saying that the Dark Side has an advantage.  So exactly the opposite of your thoughts on the matter.  You do not agree with him.

 

 

Not only that, but statistical analysis is taking a serious hit today if a 4/2 win-loss ratio is enough of a disparity to imply a LS imbalance.  Just one additional loss for LS would have yielded a perfectly even 3/3 ratio.

 

 

 

and here I had hoped he was being facetious about the game being imbalanced, but my simple statement is if the game feels imbalanced in any way then one of two things is true. 1) either you are bad at the game or 2) your opponents are bad at the game. 

 

Not at all. Look at Netrunner - the original game died because of the same kind of imbalance. FFG fixed it and now it's playable.



#14 drkjedi35

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:35 AM

Also realize that it does not take 12 turns for the DS to win unless the force is never balanced towards the DS and the DS never destroys any objectives.  And chances are the LS will have won by that point anyway. 



#15 dbmeboy

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 09:38 AM

I'm now about 15 games in and the LS has won exactly one game. In particular, my Sith deck seems almost unbeatable. Between Vader, the Emperor, Force Choke, and Force Lightning the deck has amazing ability to keep the LS board cleared. Can some of you who are having LS win a lot post your deck lists for the rest of us?

#16 greyseerikrit

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:18 AM

Out of the 6 played(with pre-cons I would like to add), LS won 4 and almost won a 5th.  Only one of those did the dark side dominate and that was due to only getting 5 characters the whole game.  Which I understand is gonna happen from time to time, not a noob at this.

I was just saying I think it is easier for LS to blow up 3 objectives than it is to get the dial to 12 for the DS.  Again, this was playing the pre-cons.  Maybe after doing some deckbuilding it will change things a bit.



#17 Ulairi

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:09 AM

dbmeboy said:

I'm now about 15 games in and the LS has won exactly one game. In particular, my Sith deck seems almost unbeatable. Between Vader, the Emperor, Force Choke, and Force Lightning the deck has amazing ability to keep the LS board cleared. Can some of you who are having LS win a lot post your deck lists for the rest of us?

 

I ran the LS pre-built deck from the home page and am running 50/50 with the same Sith deck. The big mistake people I think are making when talking about imbalance is player imbalance not game balance. We are still learning the game. I now feel confident enough with the LS to compete against any DS deck. It is about learning how to play the LS and the DS. 



#18 dbmeboy

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:11 PM

Ulairi said:

dbmeboy said:

I'm now about 15 games in and the LS has won exactly one game. In particular, my Sith deck seems almost unbeatable. Between Vader, the Emperor, Force Choke, and Force Lightning the deck has amazing ability to keep the LS board cleared. Can some of you who are having LS win a lot post your deck lists for the rest of us?

 

I ran the LS pre-built deck from the home page and am running 50/50 with the same Sith deck. The big mistake people I think are making when talking about imbalance is player imbalance not game balance. We are still learning the game. I now feel confident enough with the LS to compete against any DS deck. It is about learning how to play the LS and the DS. 

I'm not using the pre built decks but custom made decks. It hasn't mattered which side I played, the Sith deck has been dominant.

#19 Magni

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:44 PM

my Lightside deck that wins is

2x Rescue

2x forgotten heros

2x hero journey

2x Han solo

2x Y4

Targeted strike rocks, han solo rocks.

But, The Vader/Pal Control deck is good unless your oponent runs less chrs (rebel) my deck is kinda weak to sith but i can still targeted strike them to death and avoid force choke with my guardians C3po can cancel your lightnings.  But if they are playing Rebels your force choke does not work on all the ships.

I play my rebel deck fast (holding up on the 1st turn unless its a sure victory) to gain the force.  I can not stress enough that you should not attack as LS if you dont think you can win the Edge, if you loose the edge that means YOUR guys will get killed and then you will be in defencive mode for 2-3 turns while you build up your units.  You dont actually have the force in the LCG and you cant just make wild attacks at objectives, if you win the force you have 11 turns to do 15 dmg.  BUT… with the deck ii burn through my hands ASAP to get Luke/Han/Guardian.  once you got that Ben and Redemption just make it a cake walk.

Magni


+++ Engagement: Resolve Strikes +++

magni strikes with greedo for 2 unit damage to Han Solo and 1 Blast Damage.


#20 Ulairi

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:01 PM

dbmeboy said:

Ulairi said:

dbmeboy said:

I'm now about 15 games in and the LS has won exactly one game. In particular, my Sith deck seems almost unbeatable. Between Vader, the Emperor, Force Choke, and Force Lightning the deck has amazing ability to keep the LS board cleared. Can some of you who are having LS win a lot post your deck lists for the rest of us?

 

 

I ran the LS pre-built deck from the home page and am running 50/50 with the same Sith deck. The big mistake people I think are making when talking about imbalance is player imbalance not game balance. We are still learning the game. I now feel confident enough with the LS to compete against any DS deck. It is about learning how to play the LS and the DS. 

I'm not using the pre built decks but custom made decks. It hasn't mattered which side I played, the Sith deck has been dominant.

 

I know. I am saying that pre-built deck from the homepage (about the LS/DS factions) which isn't a starter deck, can handle whatever Sith deck you build. If you want to play online, I'll show you. 

 

The key is playing the game properly.






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