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#1 flyndad

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:52 AM

I was just wanting to do a quick check/survey: Does ANYONE play WFRP3e using JUST the books, a pen, and a piece of paper?  No "bits" at ALL?

 

If you currently play this way could you please respond with a simple "how often" you do this??

 

Thanks,..



#2 gmanjkd

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 05:18 PM

Sorry no, I am currently condensing the number of components that I use, and am very interested in the responses you get on this post.  I think the bigest problem that you will run into is that individually all of the components are awesome, however when you combine all of them the get to be a bit much.  But which ones do you drop?   Its a difficult question.

 

Gary



#3 doc_cthulhu

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 05:07 AM

While we played we player (mostly) without the cards. What the players wanted to keep/use I let them keep/use. 

HERE you can find a couple of character sheets for this kind of gaming.

Main problem is that you seriously diminish the usefulness of the neat dice if you leave out too many components. Sure you can come up with cool effects for the symbols on the fly. But it get kind of old really quick.


The Daily Empire - An inspirational & resource site for all games of Warhammer

The Guild Blog - A blog about RPGs, games (and apparently comics) by my gaming group


#4 Emirikol

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:18 AM

I've run and played using MAPTOOL (Gitzman's version and an older version).  There are ZERO bits in those games obviously.  Works just fine.

I've also run it several times at game conventions, "bit free."  I'm not about to sacrifice my stuff for strangers, so I'm thankful that the poorly-names, "rules lite" version was formally released as an option in the books.  

As Warhammer is defined by it's game world and themes, I've not noticed a difference without the bits.  When it comes to newer players, it takes about 4 sessions to get dice calculations down, remembering to change stance, and remembering to remove recharge.

Funny when I see arguments over it though.  When I started playing AD&D back in the early 80's, there were recharge times..uh..re-use times for special powers like 3/2 or 5/2, which meant you could use that special ability 3times in 2 rounds or 5 times in 2 rounds.  Wow, wouldn't a simple recharge mechanism have been handy then!  Instead, we were doing the math in our heads.

And now I'm playing a Wizard in a Pathfinder game and I'm constantly looking through the book for spells.  Again, just having a card handy would be nice.

When I first started by WFRP3 group I minimized the bits as much as possible.  My current group is split about 50/50 on bits.  Half use all the bits and cards- including Fortune Point Cards (rules on 'em), our metal coins for loot (made from smashed pennies) as well as Table-Tents for the characters (with a 4x5" sheet sleeve on front that you slide your career card into..it doesn't go on my table.

There are some things though that instantly became obsolete for my group:

NONE of us use the basic action cards.  We use a summary sheet and one guy uses Gitzman's sheet which has it on there.

I don't use nemesis sheets, but would probably if there was a little more meat to them and they were bigger.  I just don't see the point of the progress trackers on them.

I don't use a progress tracker, as I favor a post-it note (it doesn't move)

I don't use chits for initiative.  Again, post-its don't move and = quicker.

I don't use monster cards.  For people who prep with cards, I commend you.  I just mark the pages in my Creature Guide.

I don't track ACE. I just wing it…much quicker and less sanity lost.

Anybody that uses a card get's an album sheet to put them in and a vis a vis marker (or chits if they want them).  Again, minimize lost stuff.

Career ability goes in a card sheet on the table tent (facing the player)

I don't use location cards.  Don't get me wrong, I think they're great.  They're just too small for a table of 5.  They actually work really great in a MAPTOOL game because you can see the picture on the back, and then mouseover and it shows the info you need at a glance.

I don't use Item Cards (much)..that's just because I'm a stingy, rat-bastard GM who has the characters eating the oats off the straw in barn manure because they're so broke from the cost of thier maggoty, infected wound treatments. (am I kidding?)

We don't use party sheets, except for pure cinematic effect for deliberate party tension and because we have a plastic stand that we put it into.  Our players do a lot of ribbing on each other.  I don't give them a penalty for that, but we joke about what the effect "would be."  We usually start the tension meter at about 7 just for that reason (I'm thinking of having a random d10 roll for each game to get the group off to a good, rough start!)

I don't generally use a "condition" card because my players have a summary sheet in the back of the House Rulebook.

So, what does that leave that we do use?

Wound, insanity, mis-cast, mutation, disease cards

Stance meters (for those that aren't using a vis a vis marker)

Special Action cards (and possibly chits)

Range markers (we use ones with ALL of the ranges on there..as in another post).

Actual coinage

Fortune point cards (rarely recharged during the game, as we don't use the party sheets)

 

 

jh

 

 

 

..



#5 Akora

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:20 AM

Emirikol said:

 

Actual coinage

 

 

What do you mean by this exactly?



#6 Kilsern

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:31 AM

Emirikol said:

When I first started by WFRP3 group I minimized the bits as much as possible.  My current group is split about 50/50 on bits.  Half use all the bits and cards- including Fortune Point Cards (rules on 'em), our metal coins for loot (made from smashed pennies) as well as Table-Tents for the characters (with a 4x5" sheet sleeve on front that you slide your career card into..it doesn't go on my table.

Fortune point cards (rarely recharged during the game, as we don't use the party sheets)

 

Any chance of seeing a photo of your Table-Tents and Fortune point cards?

My group was having a discussion about this last night. Personally, I'm a fan of the cards, bits and bobs; however, we were discussing adding boxes to the character sheets to replace Stress and Fatigue chits. 



#7 Emirikol

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:37 PM

Here are some pix:

1.  Smashed pennies, silver paint, sharpie markers.  The bronze coins, I made entirely filthy looking with some acrylic paint

2.  My gaming area

3. Table tent pix

 

 

 

..



#8 Kilsern

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 06:03 PM

Nice. I've been thinking of using coins in our games as well.



#9 Akora

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 06:25 PM

How do you smash the pennies or where do you buy smashed pennies?



#10 Emirikol

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 02:39 AM

i don't have an anvil, so i just smash them on a sledge with a regular hammer.  The claw on the back of a regular hammer

or a brick hammer can be used to initially soften up the metal.  I also use it to obliterate markings and chip the edges to make

them look like they've been ground.

Gold paint (no, you don't huff it, you spray it), works just fine.  I did primer the coins first..works MUCH better, otherwise

they get scratched.

With a sharpie marker, I drew some cheezeball pictures on the them relative to Imperial provinces and cities with their

flag symbols.

It was necessary to make the bronze/brass bits valued with a "5" on theback because brass is really hardly worth 

tracking anyways.

I did silvers in both 10's and 1's.

I have gold in 1's and 5's.

 



#11 Emirikol

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 02:42 AM

It takes about 30 seconds per coin to adequately smash them up.  WEAR EAR PROTECTION AND EYEWEAR.  I always wear ear protection, bit it took a couple of them flinging off my sledge at 100 a hundred miles per hour to kick my protective instincts in gear.

 

jh



#12 Remorhaz

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 04:24 PM

i suspected  you were a hardcore gamer emrikiol based on your posts but the pictures really drive it home :)

nice set up. 

 

i do love warhammer 3E but after seeing what the mechanics have becomes in edge of empire im a little bummed warhammer doesn't have the same rules. giving the player fiat over the "boons" and rolling the bonus damage into the roll itself is slick. 

warhammer turn : flip through action cards-> decide action-> shift stance meter-> assemble dice pool-> roll dice-> determine sucess/failure-> refer to action card to spend boons and trigger banes and calculate damage -> distribute wound cards->gm hems and haws about comet and chaos star results -> remove recharge token -> next turn.

star wars turn : i want to shoot somebody-> how far away are they?-> assemble pool-> roll dice-> calculate succes/failure and bonus damage and crits-> player and gm colloborate on triumph/despair and threat/advantage results as they relate to the story-> next turn.

maybe i oversimplified the star wars turn a bit but i love that emphasis on player/gm collaboration in the star wars rules and the fact less stuff is in the way of the story which is what ultimately matters to me more than anything. 

does warhammer need a stance meter? no in hindsight reckless and conservative could have been baked into assembling the pool. do you need an action card to determine the results of  two boons and comet? . no you just give the player examples of what those things could be and let them have at it.   

the evolution of the dice mechanic is fascinating stuff to me. i find it very hard to play with normal rpg dice anymore. most of my gaming time lately has centered around warhammer 3/ descent 2/ and xwing minis…not a standard die in any of those games. 

 i remember when the thought of rolling a 20 excited me way more than it should have but ffg has hacked my brain and now i want the starburst, the comet and the hammer and the only time normal dice do it for me is at the craps table but thats a whole other story lol. 

 



#13 Emirikol

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 03:24 AM

Remorhaz said:

 

 i do love warhammer 3E but after seeing what the mechanics have becomes in edge of empire im a little bummed warhammer doesn't have the same rules. giving the player fiat over the "boons" and rolling the bonus damage into the roll itself is slick.    

does warhammer need a stance meter? no in hindsight reckless and conservative could have been baked into assembling the pool. do you need an action card to determine the results of  two boons and comet? . no you just give the player examples of what those things could be and let them have at it. 

 

 

 

I can totally see why Jay Little put the stance, fatigue and stress into WFRP3.  It is COMPLETELY true to the warhammer lore and Gotrek and Felix novels (read about their encounter with the rat ogre in the caves of the old dwarf hold). Sometimes games are game systems just slapped into a game world.  WFRP3 is the Warhammer world's elements. 

Now, that said, could WFRP3 be refined?  Sure, what game couldn't.  Does the mechanic of stance, fatigue, stress, and recharge bug me?  Not at all, and I find new ways to use them for roleplaying inspriation every game, and I believe it's true to the Warhammer lore, novels, and feel of the world.  it's really a proficiency thing to learn..and a players-need-to-pay-attention thing.  Players have to learn this system and they have to try when they play.  I like it that way.

MY COMPLETELY UNRELATED COMMENT ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE:  Now, I'd like some honest feedback on the statement I'm about to make:  I believe that Star wars needs to be a much "simpler" game, because it's geared towards a larger audience, and hence must be "reduced" for that reason.  I was at the game store playing Pathfinder with my kids last night and a guy came in to let me know that he thinks that the Pathfinder Boxed Set and the FFG Star Wars game are the best ever for new players.  He told me that the Star Wars game is so great because it's based on the Tie Fighter/x-wing mechanic of these funny dice with "variable success."  I couldn't help but let him know the truth that it's simply a dumbed-down version of WFRP3 (without saying 'dumbed down' of course).  He looked at me like I was being an ******* (of course, it did come across that way, but I don't have any yellow dice in Charm), but it kind of pissed me off that WFRP3 is like a forgotten step-child and is accused of being something that it's not:  It's not an idiot's game for players who need to be reminded to put their diaper on every morning.

I"m not saying that Star Wars is, but I do believe that it certainly isn't a "better game" just because it has had several of the components of WFRP3 remeoved.  It's just better for that universe and its fans and players.  As Nostradomis predicts, I also predict that in 6 months people will be clamouring for "more special actions" for their characters..and back up the slope that game will go.

I think all of our games are lucky that White Wolf publishing worked so hard to perfect dice pools  for VAMPIRE back in the day (because even they weren't the first to invent it, but it suffered the mechanism to masses of roleplayers).

In regards to the Player Fiat of SW, I think that's really a great idea and could easily be put into the game with simple re-interpretation of comets and chaos stars.  I encourage my players to come up with ideas (I have them roll a d10 on our chart for inspiration..and then let the fiasco begin). 

[another  short, COMPLETELY UNRELATED rant about how lazy and unappreciative we players can get over some of these trivial things and how WFRP3 isn't for crappy, half-assed gamers]
We players are used to showing up at a game with barely our character finished for the game (if that) and expect the GM to spoon feed us a bunch of fun for free on a perfect game system that allows us to do whatever we want, whenever we want, by pushing the 'win' button like in some MMO with a 2-minute time-out if your character managed to somehow die.  Heaven forbid we players have to actually lift a finger to play a game.  Oh the pain of having to remember to pull a token from my actions!  Oh the pain of remembering to move my stance!  I have to laugh when I hear that, because the GM does way more work every session than any player could ever even contribute in 10 sessions (my prima donna GM opinion anyways) so the concern about forgetting to min-max a character's recharge/stance or having to expend 2 calories of brain power  to actually learn a game system really is pretty laughable.[rant off]

 

Does that poster go too far? Or is it dead-on?



#14 gmanjkd

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 05:31 AM

@EmriKol   Hi, I love the components of this game but have found that it takes up a lot of space this way……I don't have a lot of space, and I have found that I am unwilling to transport the game to play anywhere other than my front room.  Gone are the days of graph paper, dice and a few books chilling on the couch with friends :).  

I always appreciate your advice on this forum.  After reading your last post I had a few questions.

 

1)  Since you don't use monster cards, what do you do for the monster actions?

2) Condidtion card summary sheet.  I assume this is home brewed and you just keep it nearby?

3) Do you just leave a copy of the basic actions in the middle of the table for everyone to reference?

 

Just a side note.   What would happen if the stance track was completely removed?  Ultimately the stance dice are just a system of risk vs reward.  3 reckless dice are more likely to produce a negative effect than 1 or 2.   Conservative dice more likely to slow me down etc.  What if a PC could simply look at there available options and choose independently each round.  

Example:  If I had a stance track it would read.  C/C/N/R/R/R.

Round 1.  Instead of netral, I use 3 reckless dice in my pool.  I succeed but gain 1 Fatigue.

Round 2  Things look a little worse.  I use 2 Reckless, Gain zero fatigue but get clobbered by an enemy.

Round 3  I need this to count so I go full Conservative using 2 green dice.  I succeed but i generate 1 Hourglass and my initiative suffers for it.

Round 4 I have gotten beaten pretty bad and cant risk a hit to my initiative or any more fatigue so I build my pool with on Netral dice.

 

4)            Would this flexability break or overly influence the game?

Thanks All
Gary


#15 Emirikol

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 06:37 AM

 @EmriKol   Hi, I love the components of this game but have found that it takes up a lot of space this way… 

Me too man.  When I was in college, we played in tiny apartments and trailer hovels (yes, I went to College in South Dakota ;).  We had very little room and I think this game would have made us scratch our heads.

You can clean up most of the room by simply doing a couple things:  1) put away the career sheet.  It's a faulty-design.  Putting the talent sockets on a separate sheet that has no other purpose except during leveling is absurd.
2) Write your career ability on your card.  This is another faulty design. 
3) Use a basic action sheet instead of the cards and also put the remainder of your cards into an album sheet.

 

 

 

I always appreciate your advice on this forum.  After reading your last post I had a few questions.

1)  Since you don't use monster cards, what do you do for the monster actions?

Let's look at some examples:
All monsters:  I track their wounds on post-it notes
Beastman (any of them).  Basic actions are fine.  Wing some ACE dice.  Apply damage, be descriptive.
Squig (chompity chomp): I mark the page of the action in the Creature guide and reference it "whenever."  If I can't estimate when the action card is going to recharge, then I may make a tick on the post-it note, but again, is it really that essential to be perfect with the accounting of recharge when it comes to monsters?  Afterall, it's up to the GM to decide when monsters flee and that's completely arbitrary, as is the arbitrary use of ACE dice.  

 

2) Condidtion card summary sheet.  I assume this is home brewed and you just keep it nearby?

It's in my house rules in my sig.  It's all the conditions with their definitions, plus some that should have been finished by the designers (I have yet to add the "ethereal" condition, but it's on the way ;)  Feel free to use it at will, copy it, and give it to your players.  I usually allow players to do either dig through the stack of cards or just look at it on their sheet..much quicker to just look on their sheet, but prettier if they stick thei condition to their table tent ;)

3) Do you just leave a copy of the basic actions in the middle of the table for everyone to reference?

Everybody get's  copy.  There are fan versions out there (google it "basic action sheet wfrp" and look at 'images'), as well as the OFFICIAL basic action sheet that people can download.  I have miniatureized the one in the google search and just tape it to the back of their table tent (you'll see it above). Behind that, I have the miniatureized list of maneuvers, how to perform a rally step, etc.

4)            Would this flexability break or overly influence the game?

Just a side note.   What would happen if the stance track was completely removed?   

We've played it with "set your stance dice to whatever you want..but face the consequences" as well as many other ways.  Ultimately, the only thing affected is STRESS, which means less chance for insanity.   A GM can always mitigate that with some made-up "take some stress" attacks by monsters and situations ;)

I've gone over the statistical probabilities many times.  You can review them as well here:

https://dl.dropbox.c...N MADE TOOL.htm

The chance of success in this game, for an ordinary noob in an ordinary situation (combat) is already somethign like 86% so adding more stance dice just brings that higher, and I don't think the consequences are that big of a deal (as a player).

 

Best,

 

jh

 



#16 flyndad

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 08:05 AM

My initial post about playing without the "bits" was out of a "curiosity” I had regarding the WFRP3e entire line.

NOT to beat a dead horse or harp on FFG, (there has been plenty of that in other posts already) but I have yet to hear of ANYONE,… ANYONE,.. that plays this game WITHOUT ANY of the "bits". Sure, every GM has their modifications and removal and/or add ons, but again, I have never heard of anyone that plays "old school" - book, paper, pen. 

Please correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't that the purpose of creating the "books"? 

As I see it, (and again, I could be wayyyy off here) when FFG created the "books" they screwed the pooch,.. --- again -- !  

Is my summary off?   They create a VERY unique, new, fresh, mechanic and rules system that was VERY different compared to anything else out there and did so with a rather "well known" brand. They had to know that there was a solid and substantial fan base, and with any new version there is ALWAYS a small crowd from that base that vocally moans about nothing being wrong with the existing version. This occurs weather or not the new version is radically different from the old one.

With WFRP3e, the new version was (and is) RADICALLY different from the old version, so they should have expected that this "moaning" group would be larger than usual. Now throw into the mix that FFG is mostly a board game and card game publisher.

So they release WFRP3e and almost immediately there exists the "should have been expected" backlash. ----  I have read and seen the reviews on rpg geek and youtube ----   "ohh this stinks",…"Ohh this is a board game",… "ohh this is a card game",… "ohh, this game is wayy too expensive, don't bother", etc,.. 

So, due to the combination of a terribly written and woefully disorganized core set rulebook, and the lack of foresight and education of the system to the players, these FALSE reviews and overall summaries of the game began to take root.  (Anybody that has REALLY played WFRP3e, and given it at least three good sessions KNOWS that it is NOT a card game or a board game. IMHO, I have found it to be one of the BEST mechanics out there for enabling a player to "pretend to be their character" which is what RPG games are all about, right? Having fun pretending to be a "hero" in a world where you can slay the enemy, get the girl, and ride off into the sunset with glory and fortune,… IF you survive !?! )  SO screw up #1.

So what does FFG do??  IMO, they screw up AGAIN by completely misinterpreting the reaction and "listening" to these FALSE accusations. Then, by releasing the "books", they basically admit that these naysayers were correct and even go so far as to promote the books as a way to play without all the bits !?!  (which nobody is doing anyway) So,.. they messed it up again because the answer to the problem WAS NOT the problem!

Prior to the release of the "books" FFG, had they interpreted the issue correctly, would have put ALL of their efforts, energies and MONIES into a proper, well written, well organized, easy to understand explanation of the Core Set Rules and the mechanic, AND… an excellent, well produced, well written, well organized, detailed VIDEO of exactly HOW AND WHY this mechanic lends itself to an even BETTER and ENHANCED roleplay experience.   This would have strengthened the system, not diluted it, and would have re-enforced the "player learning curve". THAT, in my opinion, was what was needed.

Instead, the books further diluted the rules "understanding", and made it a veritable nightmare when a potential player was interested in getting into the game. (Let’s not even get into the poor organization of the Creature Guide. Is it too much to ask for a picture, a few fluff paragraphs, actions, and stats of a single creature in a SINGLE AREA !?!)

FFG, it seems, enjoys shooting itself in the foot,… repeatedly.

Although the fan community is all over the map with thoughts on how to better the game, I don't believe it is too much of a stretch to think that we can come together on at least ONE issue,.. That being a Beginner Boxed Set, can and would FIX most, if not all, of these REAL issues that currently face this game.

1. It would allow potential players a simplified and more organized explanation of the rules and the system, thereby enabling a player to better see and understand HOW this system is MORE conducive than most when it comes to "the roleplaying experience".

2. It would offer a distinct and obvious ENTRY POINT for the game, with an explanation of "where to go next" when players are ready to invest more into the expansion of the game.

3. It would allow for the correction of some of the other "minor" mistakes that have occurred, i.e. not enough quantity of "proper" stand-ups for the core set campaign, acquisition of a proper dice quantity, etc, etc, etc.

 

Hence my original post: Is anyone,.. anyone,.. "taking advantage" of FFG solution to the complaints, and playing WFRP3e without ANY bits of any kind at all ???  

 

 



#17 gmanjkd

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 09:44 AM

 

To answer your question, No.  I have been running this game for only a few months and have toyed with the idea of running the "Lite" version of the game, however In my opinion the "lite" version feels convoluted, tediouse, and awkward.  The organization of the creatures guide does not lend itself well to playing without cards IMHO, so it serves virtually no purpose.   

If i could figure out how to play this game old school, without any components, just books dice pencile and paper, and still maintain the feel and ease of play I would do so.  The game works very well as it was designed.  Playing the game in the "lite" version over complicates the game….again IMO. 

 

Hope this helps


Gary

 



#18 Emirikol

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 11:04 AM

>Fyndad:  release a beginners boxed set

This may help people get into the game, but it's the 3rd release of the same old stuff.  They're not going to be able to sell it to the likes of us established gamers, and they're hell-bent on the SW game right now.  Worst case scenario, they'd make yet another new edition (4th) and try to fleece the hell out of anyone stupid enough to buy the game a FOURTH time in 2 editions.

I think it's best to just tell people to buy the Core Set..at least then they can get some dice.  Woe to anyone getting into this game without the core set.

 

jh



#19 flyndad

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 06:34 PM

Hi Jay,

Thanks for the input. You're opinion is highly respected and had it not been for you and several other dedicated "fans" like Jesse, and Yesesnopes, and Ceodryn, and Neil F. I would NOT be playing WFRP3e. (There are MANY other talented and dedicated fan leaders out there as well, please don't be offended if I left your name out) The FACT of the matter is that FFG would NOT have had many hundreds of dollars of campaign and supplement purchases from me without you guys.

If I may address your response in chronological "bits" (pun fully intended).

">Fyndad:  release a beginners boxed set".  - Are you referring to my post about a beginners boxed set, or suggesting that I create one and release it? I f you meant the latter,  I don't have near the talent or expertise that you and many others here have. Besides Warhammer Quest, my only experience with WFRP is with 3rd edition, and that has only been over the last 18 months or so. I am STILL learning the rules and reading the supplement material.

"This may help people get into the game" - Need we say more? Anything that would expand the player base can't be a bad thing.

"but it's the 3rd release of the same old stuff." - Well,… kind of. I definitely see your point. FFG basically said "here are the rules. Sorry they are so poorly put together. We know,.. It is kind of a mess. Good luck referencing anything." - Then, later: "Here is a much better rule book, and it lets you play without the little pieces, BUT, we have added even more rules, so now you can get these new rules in this book, or buy a portion of them in a campaign box set. For those of you going the core set route, you will just have to buy EVERYTHING but the book, OR buy the book and what supplements you like,.. we think,.. wait,.. is that right?,.. ohh and some dice packs too,.. unless, of course, you bought the book,. then you should purchase 4 dice packs and a vault  if you want three players,.. please do this before you write your letter home, after you move your roommate’s clothes onto the lower peg, if you are playing in this afternoon's match, if you’re not getting your hair cut. Got it ??"  ………….   However….., If FFG were to slim down the rules, aka like the Pathfinder Boxed Set, would it really be the SAME material released again or a more narrow "version" for entry level players and those "interested" in learning a bit more about the game? My opinion favors the latter.

"They're not going to be able to sell it to the likes of us established gamers," -  Here is where I do disagree. I believe that not only would it sell, but sell quite well. If this Beginner Boxed Set were to include: a few NEW careers, a totally NEW campaign, a few NEW Item cards, a few NEW action cards, a very few NEW Basic spells, a few NEW severe wound cards (printed on the back, the rules for them would be left out of course, with the explanation that severe wounds are part of the more "advanced" game), a few NEW condition cards, enough Ungor stand ups to actually represent the number of Ungors in the Day Late Demo Campaign, maybe some NEW artwork, AND a decent sized DICE PACK, then I think the "experienced" player would purchase it just for the campaign if nothing else. Now throw in the fact that the Boxed Set would be set at price point low enough to entice new players and be competitive with Pathfinder and you almost have a no brainer. Bottom line: There could be enough "NEW" stuff in the Beginner Set to draw the advanced player.

"and they're hell-bent on the SW game right now." - Well, this is undoubtedly true. I don't think we could gain FFG attention if we all tattooed "Active member of the Unblinking Eye" across our chests and ran naked through their corporate offices. ,… but ya never know,…..  if anyone is interested in organizing this please PM me,…. 

"I think it's best to just tell people to buy the Core Set" - Sadly, this may very well be the case. I do know that for me anyway, it wasn't until AFTER I purchased the Core Set that I thought about abandoning WFRP3e for another game. I was so frustrated with the rule book, lack of "where to go" by FFG website, and lack of finding any players within 150 miles of my home, that it only took ONE visit to the Pathfinder website to make me think twice. Had it not been for Gitzman's site, the Liber Fanatica, and the online Google Group/Old World League I would NOT be here.

Thank you and all the others for your intense support of this game. Fantasy Flight Games OWES you a GREAT deal of Gratitude.

 

 






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