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The Erebor Hammer Deck, The Most Broken Deck Since Ziggy Miner?


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#1 Mattr0polis

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:28 AM

Hi all. Do you like broken decks, infinite loops and completely dominating games of Lord of the Rings LCG? Then you are in the right place! Because we're talking about the most busted combo since the Zigil Miner deck. In fact, in my opinion this is way worse than the Zigil Miner deck but I'll let you judge for yourself.
 
Now, to start off, I did not find this combo. That well-deserved credit, as far as I know, goes to alogos on the BGG forums (alogos3 here). Give him geekgold if you see him on BGG. He posted about an infinite loop and said: "If you want to access this dark and forbidden knowledge that ruins the game, PM me." Curious, I sent a PM and got a legit reply. After laughing a bit, sharing the combo with my friend (The Janitor on here) and us joking about hilarious ways to abuse it, and reading comments like this: "There is no five card combo that breaks a game. Sorry, building up a five card combo takes too much effort in and of itself, particularly in a game like this." we decided we wanted to try it out. This is then simply the deck I built around the combo.
 
Anyway, let's get to it:
 
The Deck
 
Beravor
Bilbo Baggins
Thalin
 
Erebor Hammersmith 3x
Master of Lore 3x
Master of the Forge 3x
Gleowine 3x
Miner of the Iron Hills 2x
Longbeard Map-Maker
Warden of Healing
Haldir of Lorien
Gildor Inglorion
Gandalf 3x
 
Legacy of Durin 3x
Horn of Gondor 3x
Born Aloft 3x
Steward of Gondor
Song of Kings
Song of Travel
 
Daeron's Runes 3x
Peace, and Thought 3x
Lorien's Wealth 3x
Will of the West 2x
Wealth of Gondor 2x
Parting Gifts
Out of the Wild
Blade Mastery 2x
 
~~~~~
 
The Breakdown of Parts
 
Heroes
 
Beravor-For drawing.
Bilbo Baggins-For drawing. Start yourself as player one.
Thalin-You need a dwarf hero, and Tactics color for the combo. Thalin is also less threat than Gimli, which is better to hopefully keep enemies off of you early.
 
To be clear, our games are almost exclusively two or three player games. That's where this deck and combo works the best. The other players' jobs are basically to stall until you lock into the combo. I was sending Bilbo and Thalin questing every turn (for a whopping help of two! Oh and Thalin's ability.) but that was basically it. It was up to my friends to quest, defend, attack, etc. although all they really have to do is make it a few turns, stopping things from getting so bad that you lose in those first few turns or that attacks or things get through to this deck. Any of these three heroes dying will severely damage the probability of getting the combo up, in play and done quickly. I'll let my friend post up his deck if he wants to, but his main parts to help do these companion deck tasks were: a Spirit/Tactics deck with Eowyn, Eleanor and Hama (hopefully with Feint early). Beregond was also involved in the three player games to sentinel block for me.
 
The Combo
 
Erebor Hammersmith 3x
Master of Lore 3x
Legacy of Durin 3x
Horn of Gondor 3x
Born Aloft 3x
 
So, if it's not obvious to you what you need to do: Get out Legacy of Durin on Thalin and Horn of Gondor on Beravor as quick as possible. My friends' decks also ran copies of these two attachments to help us get them up faster. Then play Master of Lore and name "Lore Allies" to cost one cheaper. Now you can play Erebor Hammersmith for one, draw a card from Durin's Legacy, play Born Aloft on Hammersmith, use Born Aloft to send Hammersmith back to hand, gain a resource from Horn of Gondor, and repeat. Hammersmith gets you the Born Aloft back from the top of your discard pile, so, you can do this infinitely to immediately draw your entire draw deck once you hit the combo in your planning phase.
 
Drawing Cards Stuff
 
Master of the Forge 3x-Really awesome since three of the cards in the combo are attachments.
Gleowine 3x
Gildor Inglorion
Gandalf 3x
Daeron's Runes 3x
Peace, and Thought 3x-Ridiculous card.
Lorien's Wealth 3x
 
Beravor is two more cards for you each turn. This may seem like a lot of cards dedicated to drawing but I wouldn't change that at all. It doesn't matter how many slots are for this, it is the single most important thing. All you have to do is find those five cards, so we need to draw away. Peace and Thought is insane. There's games where you'll draw your 6 card starting hand, mulligan if it's not good, draw 2 more cards from start of turn and Bilbo and 2 more from Beravor, and then if one of those 10 is a Peace and Thought, have drawn 15 cards on turn 1. So, to that guy who said "There is no five card combo that breaks a game." and "building up a five card combo takes too much effort in and of itself, particularly in a game like this." you would be wrong. VERY wrong. Not only is this VERY doable but on average we were hitting the combo on about turn three and have even pulled it off as early as turn two. About the only thing that might stop you from doing it that quick often is resources but even that there are ways to help. Hopefully you get Horn of Gondor up early. Or a friend finds one of his Steward of Gondors to play on you. My friend also ran Miruvors to give me an extra resource quickly some games, plus you might be able to use your two extra Born Alofts (after you draw your whole deck) on your friend's allies to trigger Horn of Gondor a couple extra times. Also if your friends find their copies of Legacy of Durin or Horn of Gondor to play on you that will save you some. Try to save as many resources as you can but obviously work to find the combo. Mulligan at the start if you don't have at least two of the combo pieces. 
 
Infinite Resources Tricks
 
Song of Kings
Steward of Gondor
Wealth of Gondor 2x
Parting Gifts
Song of Travel
Will of the West 2x
 
Now that you've drawn your whole deck, here's where things really go off the rails. Once you draw your whole deck, hopefully you have enough resources to play Song of Kings on Beravor, who then can pay for Steward of Gondor, to make her Gondor trait. Or maybe your friend found his Steward of Gondors to play on you. Now you can play Wealth of Gondor 2x on her to gain two resources, then pay one to play Song of Travel on her and one for Will of the West to shuffle the 2x Wealth of Gondors back into your deck. Pause to do your Hammersmith/Born Aloft bounce trick twice more to get the Wealths back, play them both again, repeat for a net gain of one resource each time. Repeat until you have infinite resources on Beravor. Now play Parting Gifts to move infinite resources to another hero on the table, Will of the West, Hammersmith/Born Aloft, repeat until every hero on the table has infinite resources. Now find your Lorien's Wealths again and loop those infinitely as well on the other players so that they can also all draw their whole decks. Depending on turn order the other players may or may not be able to play all of their characters and attachments like you but if not they'll be joining all of yours next turn.
 
Other Ridiculousness
 
Longbeard Map-Maker- Um, him plus infinite resources pretty much takes care of questing…
Haldir of Lorien-Ranged/sentinel plus Blade Mastery trick in Combat Phase covers an attack/defend for an emergency on your friends if the turn order on the combo turn made them not be able to get their allies out just yet.
Warden of Healing-Infinite heals to everyone.
Out of the Wild-This is just ridiculous. Infinite plays of this equals almost nothing left in the Encounter deck. Some quests it leaves nothing or like only a couple cards…
Blade Mastery 2x-you can play this infinitely on every character in play in the Combat Phase, soo attack and defense are covered. Also useful for the Siege/Battle Heirs of Numenor quests.
 
Now everyone has their whole deck in their hand and has infinite resources. You can now do basically anything you want. Aside from the last couple of tricks here, there's a BUNCH more stuff you can do and loop infinitely, I just let my friend include these other tricks to lighten the deck load. You'll have to loop Will of the Wests/Lorien's Wealths on the other deck so that they can keep doing their stuff infinitely as well. Some of the best: obviously The Galadhrim's Greeting to reduce everyone's threats to 0. The Riddermark's Finest to clear every location in play. Hail of Stones/Grim Resolve or similar damage tricks to clear every enemy in the staging area. Tactics Boromir/Fortune or Fate to kill every enemy NOT in the staging area. Fortune or Fate to get all heroes back that died in stalling for you. What's almost funny is you'll find a lot of stuff isn't even necessary. I mean, do you even need to kill every enemy in play with events when you have basically infinite attack/defense characters? Do you even need more than a few allies now that you have infinite events to do basically everything?  It's really your choice which tricks to include and which ones become simply arbitrary.
 
Miner of the Iron HIlls 2x- This guy just is for if some of those stupid attachment treacheries make it onto any characters. Also they are other cheap dwarves you can use with Durin's Legacy in an emergency for a couple extra card draws if you're having trouble finding the main combo cards.
 
~~~
 
So there it is. If everything went well, on about turn three you drew your whole deck, gave every player's heroes infinite resources, let all players draw their whole deck, dropped everyone's threats to 0, eliminated all locations and enemies in (at least) the staging area, eliminated almost the entire Encounter deck, played every one of your allies and attachments (and depending on turn order, your friend's allies/attachments), plus other tricks.
 
Obviously there might be some games where you don't hit the combo and then everything goes to hell. But it hasn't happened yet. And as long as you don't actually lose the game, you can always pull all the way back once you do hit the combo. Your scores will be ridiculous too, and are only limited by the +10 points per round rules. Our best scores right now are a 13 on Into the Pit and a -3 on BATTLE FOR LAKE-TOWN. With the new scoring system even. I didn't even know you could enter a negative score but the quest log lets you and even says "use negative numbers if needed". *Shrug*. There's a few quests that could still be problematic but almost all of them you will destroy. Ironically, the Battle for Lake-town, the hardest quest available, is probably the best one for scores with this because of all the victory points. You just have to hopefully not hit like the 'attack everyone' Smaug or other bad stuff early in that quest.
 
I'm not quite sure how this will do solo. It probably depends on the quest. Obviously it will be harder, especially for early resources and blocking, but maybe still doable on many quests as long as you can survive. I'm not sure what I would cut to fit some of the other infinite loop trick cards though. Hilariously you don't even have to quest very hard (or at all!) as long as you find the combo before you hit 50 threat.
 
My main motivation for posting this, honestly, is to just bring awareness to the combo and to FFG. I kind of hate errata but obviously something here needs fixed. I'd hate to start going to those new game store events in January when the game night kits come out only to see this combo everywhere. It would kind of put a damper on the premiere of game night events right off the bat, in my opinion.
 
What part should they even fix though? Legacy of Durin? Master of Lore since he seems like something that could be abused later on as well? Wealth of Gondor, though I think you could then still maybe do an infinite resource loop then with 3x errata'ed Zigil Miners, Lure of Moria and Will of the West once your deck is out. What also scares me is that certain other parts of this might end up being broken on their own without the combo. Mainly Wealth of Gondor. Like, you can easily draw through 15 cards on turn 1 with a Peace and Though and if you hit a second Peace and Thought in those 15, you could be through 23 cards by turn 2 without playing any other drawing cards or Daeron's Runes or other players playing drawing cards on you. 23 cards! That's almost half your deck. And this is post-Beravor errata. If we can get through our deck any faster with future cards, Wealth of Gondor 2x/Will of the West infinite resources trick will be ridiculous on it's own and you won't even need the Hammersmith parts.
 
Sorry if I over explained some stuff here. I really just wanted to make sure everyone, veteran or apprentice alike, was fully aware of what this deck is capable of. I'm honestly surprised more people aren't talking about this yet.
 
Anyway, I would love to hear your thoughts. I'm sure some of you might even see ways to improve the deck and make it even more stupid, hah. Maybe my friend will post his deck as well, so you can at least see our version of a companion stall deck.
 
Enjoy!
 
-Matt


#2 spalanzani

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:56 AM

Why would you want to do this, though? Is it fun?


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#3 Mattr0polis

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 09:16 AM

spalanzani said:

 

Why would you want to do this, though? Is it fun?

 

 

It's not really fun, no. Once you draw the combo it's almost anti-climactic really, and the game is basically destroyed. I guess the motivation for doing it though would be good scores in the quest log or the prize support in the game night kits, etc. That kind of stuff. That's what worries me more than anything. And to be fair, the Zigil Miner deck wasn't really "fun" to play either but people still did it a LOT for whatever reasons.



#4 richsabre

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 10:15 AM

spalanzani said:

Why would you want to do this, though? Is it fun?

this is exactly my take on these things. part of me thinks the designers of these decks set out to make a dekc that will break the game. (thats not aimed at you mattropolis by the way…or anyone else for that matter….i know youre just putting this out there for interests sake)

i guess what i mean is that there are people out there good at making these decks..really good, and i guess they just need to accept that once in a while a card wil come along that will chain react with previous ones to create a break in the game. all we (or they) can do is wait for the next errata and in the mean time either enjoy the broke game (if thats what they like) or pretend the card doent exist as i did with zigil.

i feel lucky that im not good enough at this game to have this problem reir

rich


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#5 GrandSpleen

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 10:56 AM

iddqd … the konami code, game genie… there are plenty of people who enjoy unlimited power modes, whether intended by game developers or not.  I wonder, though, what do you think the fix for this will be?  Limit Master of Lore's effect to 1 card in a phase (or 2 or 3)?  Limit Erebor Hammersmith's ability to once per round?  I would really hate to have them come down on Legacy of Durin or the Horn of Gondor.



#6 The Janitor

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:08 AM

spalanzani said:

Why would you want to do this, though? Is it fun?

 

Honestly, we ended up running this combo just to see if we could pull it off.  And it WAS hilarious to see three decks empty on third turn. Especially because our third player had no idea what we were doing.  But it boils down to the same problem as Zigil Miner.  A great card (Master of Lore) that is actually quite easy to warp into a broken combo.  It was just nice this time to be an ally when Mattropolis decided to try out one of the horrible combos he discovered.

 

The Janitor



#7 Tracker1

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:49 AM

GrandSpleen said:

iddqd … the konami code, game genie… there are plenty of people who enjoy unlimited power modes, whether intended by game developers or not.  I wonder, though, what do you think the fix for this will be?  Limit Master of Lore's effect to 1 card in a phase (or 2 or 3)?  Limit Erebor Hammersmith's ability to once per round?  I would really hate to have them come down on Legacy of Durin or the Horn of Gondor.

Master of lore seems like one of the issues, and we may run into more issues with this card later on, but for this specific case it may be easier to focus on the horn of gondor, and only allow the response to take place in all phases except the planing phase, I think this wold break the infinite cycle because resources would eventually run out, and would not be replenished each time hammersmith leaves play.  This would work right?

I don't think this change to the horn of gondor response would at all diminish the quality of the card, since, at least in my games, allies really leave play durrin the planing phase.  Although, I may be missing some strategy that is important to another player. I certainly missed the one in the topic of this post.


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#8 muemakan

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:00 PM

As with the old Ziggy, I don´t see a problem. I tried them like most of us did and after a few games didn´t bother with them anymore. 

And for everything that involves the importance of a good score ( game nights or tournaments ) just make a restricted or banned list.

Problem solved.

 



#9 Stenun

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:17 PM

Would any legitimate strategies be nerfed unduly if Born Aloft was limited to once per phase?



#10 Glaurung

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 01:37 PM

Very cool. I1 more unbalanced things in the game. And again Beravur and again unlimitd draw and unlimited hand size. As i always say any game with unlimited draw and unlimited hand size is always will be unbalanced. And like always the broken cards is Beravur, Will of hte west.

The big problem of this game is UnLIMITED DRAW AND UNLIMITED HAND SIZE!!!!!


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#11 Ellareth

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 01:54 PM

Mattr0polis said:

To be clear, our games are almost exclusively two or three player games. ……
 
……So, to that guy who said "There is no five card combo that breaks a game." and "building up a five card combo takes too much effort in and of itself, particularly in a game like this." you would be wrong. VERY wrong. Not only is this VERY doable but on average we were hitting the combo on about turn three and have even pulled it off as early as turn two.

 

I read that post in BGG, and I was not the guy who said "There is no five card combo that breaks a game", but I agreed with him, because when he said those words I think he was referring to a solo play.

You play exclusively 2~3 player games, and 2~3 player games are very easy even without this combo.

Only quest that is actually difficult for 2~3 players are Massing at Osgiliath and if the other 2 players can hold off the enemies for first 2 turns (which is how long it takes to set up the combo according to your post), you can win that scenario without this combo as well.

I admit, whomever came up with this combo is very creative and insightful, but the combo itself doesn't really create a situation where it turns an unwinnable quest into winnable one…. it just makes a winnable quest to be winnable with unneccesarily amount of cards in hand/play.

I've toyed around with this combo in solo player using various combination of Dwarven heroes. I still consistantly won against scenarios that I have won without using this combo, and I have still lost against scenario that I have lost without using this combo (namely Dol Guldur)

But being able to draw your entire deck in single phase, however impractical it is, shouldn't exist and I think errata on Legacy of Durin (a limit three times per phase or something like that) can easily fix this.



#12 Mattr0polis

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 03:57 PM

Ellareth said:

I read that post in BGG, and I was not the guy who said "There is no five card combo that breaks a game", but I agreed with him, because when he said those words I think he was referring to a solo play.

You play exclusively 2~3 player games, and 2~3 player games are very easy even without this combo.

Only quest that is actually difficult for 2~3 players are Massing at Osgiliath and if the other 2 players can hold off the enemies for first 2 turns (which is how long it takes to set up the combo according to your post), you can win that scenario without this combo as well.

I admit, whomever came up with this combo is very creative and insightful, but the combo itself doesn't really create a situation where it turns an unwinnable quest into winnable one…. it just makes a winnable quest to be winnable with unneccesarily amount of cards in hand/play.

We don't play exclusively 2-3 player but a large majority are. That said, the game is still enough of a challenge after multiple hundreds of games that it continues to be our most played game. I definitely would not call it "very easy".  And I wouldn't write off a combo just because it's harder in solo. EVERYTHING is harder in solo and a lot of things are clearly not even balanced for solo play. I've heard many times that the game is balanced mainly with 2 player in mind, which usually does feel the most balanced to me.



#13 Mattr0polis

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:03 PM

The problem with errata to Horn of Gondor, Legacy of Durin, Born Aloft, etc is that drawing tricks alone might eventually lead to the Wealth of Gondor thing (or worse) again down the road with future cards.

I think I partially agree with Glaurung. Things like this will keep cropping up unless they put a cap on card drawing.



#14 Stenun

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:24 PM

Simple solution …

 

How about a rule that says:

"Each card may only enter play, or be put into play, once per phase."?

 

Thus, once a copy of Erebor Hammersmith has entered play and been returned to your hand, you can't play it again that phase.  The only way you could play another Erebor Hammersmith would be to have another one in your hand - which in turn could not be played a second time once having been played out and returned to hand.

 

This would prevent any future infinite loops and still leave card drawing available for those lucky enough to play be able to Sneak Attack two Gandalfs in one round, etc.



#15 muemakan

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:30 PM

So if someone really thinks we need an errata the only thing that needs to be done: Make Will of the West a "once per game" card or a "remove from game after use" card. 

That solves all our "game breaking" combos because so far all of them rely on WotW to keep them going.

 

 

 

 



#16 Glaurung

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 02:30 AM

muemakan said:

So if someone really thinks we need an errata the only thing that needs to be done: Make Will of the West a "once per game" card or a "remove from game after use" card. 

That solves all our "game breaking" combos because so far all of them rely on WotW to keep them going.

 

 

 

 

Agree with you. Will of the west is most broken card what i saw in any card game. Show this card to MTG player, he will be shock.


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#17 Glaurung

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 02:32 AM

Ellareth said:

Mattr0polis said:

 

To be clear, our games are almost exclusively two or three player games. ……
 
……So, to that guy who said "There is no five card combo that breaks a game." and "building up a five card combo takes too much effort in and of itself, particularly in a game like this." you would be wrong. VERY wrong. Not only is this VERY doable but on average we were hitting the combo on about turn three and have even pulled it off as early as turn two.

 

 

 

I read that post in BGG, and I was not the guy who said "There is no five card combo that breaks a game", but I agreed with him, because when he said those words I think he was referring to a solo play.

You play exclusively 2~3 player games, and 2~3 player games are very easy even without this combo.

Only quest that is actually difficult for 2~3 players are Massing at Osgiliath and if the other 2 players can hold off the enemies for first 2 turns (which is how long it takes to set up the combo according to your post), you can win that scenario without this combo as well.

I admit, whomever came up with this combo is very creative and insightful, but the combo itself doesn't really create a situation where it turns an unwinnable quest into winnable one…. it just makes a winnable quest to be winnable with unneccesarily amount of cards in hand/play.

I've toyed around with this combo in solo player using various combination of Dwarven heroes. I still consistantly won against scenarios that I have won without using this combo, and I have still lost against scenario that I have lost without using this combo (namely Dol Guldur)

But being able to draw your entire deck in single phase, however impractical it is, shouldn't exist and I think errata on Legacy of Durin (a limit three times per phase or something like that) can easily fix this.

the game is not easy with number of players. Yes in SOM cycle it was like this but now with HON is going more difficutl with the number of players.


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#18 Stenun

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:11 AM

I've been thinking about this situation over night and, despite my two proposed solutions above (1. limit Born Aloft to once per phase or 2. institute a rule saying each card may only be played or enter play once per phase), I've reached the following conclusion …

What does it matter?

 

Computer games include cheat codes and nobody complains if you use those cheat codes in single player or even multiplayer co-op.  So given this is a co-operative game, what does it matter if this combo exists?  If people want to use it, let them.  You don't have to if you don't want to.  What's the problem?

 

The only problem I see is any potential competitive tournaments with players competing to get the best score against a given scenario.  And if/when that happens, just ban the combo.  Have a rule saying that in competitive play, you can't play Born Aloft on Erebor Hammersmith more than once per turn.

Simple.

 

"God mode" exists in single player computer games, but not in online play.  I don't see why we can't have the equivalent for this game, too.



#19 Stenun

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:30 AM

Glaurung said:

muemakan said:

 

So if someone really thinks we need an errata the only thing that needs to be done: Make Will of the West a "once per game" card or a "remove from game after use" card. 

That solves all our "game breaking" combos because so far all of them rely on WotW to keep them going.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Agree with you. Will of the west is most broken card what i saw in any card game. Show this card to MTG player, he will be shock.

Glaurung said:

Agree with you. Will of the west is most broken card what i saw in any card game. Show this card to MTG player, he will be shock.

 

Sorry but I really don't see that as a valid argument at all.  I've played twenty CCGs/LCGs in my time and I don't think you can compare the cards from any of them to those of another - different games require different cards and different standards.

Hell, one really obvious example - the Babylon 5 CCG allows players to choose their starting hand.  No, really, it does.  Too powerful for LotR, right?  But it's perfect for Babylon 5 and the game would be terrible without it.

Saying Will Of The West would shock an MTG player is completely irrelevant.  :-)

What matters is whether or not it works for this game.  And I think it does.  Other than the prospect of uber-card drawing, which I think it's fair to say was never FFG's intention with any combo, why exactly would Will Of The West be too powerful?  It wouldn't …



#20 Mattr0polis

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:52 AM

Yeah, kind of agree on Will of the West as well. It has been a lynchpin in both this and the Zigil deck. Making it go out of play after you use it would stop the infiniteness of these types of combos. Though, you could still draw your whole deck in like a turn, which probably still isn't great for the game.






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