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Only Heresy (OW conversion question)


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#1 ScooterinAB

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 06:25 AM

My buddy got Only War for Christmas, and we started mucking around with it last night. I'd had a chance to look through the Beta, so the whole thing wasn't very new to me, but it renewed some interest. I'm fully aware of some other conversion efforts, so bear with me.

After our breif intro game last night, I sat down and started comparing classes from DH to OW, and the results were a bit shocking. To sum it up, OW characters are about 1500 xp higher than DH characters, using soft conversion (hand waving some things like differences in Weapon Training). Aside from a few skills here and there, the most striking differences were the large number of freebies that come from OW regiments. There are a number of free talents and skills given out in excess of what we see from DH home worlds. While some of this can be offset by drawing a comparison to background packages, it fails to address one key difference: characteristic bonuses.

Every home world in OW gives a few characteristic bonuses, as do every specialization. Additionally, they seldom have a characteristic penalty. For example, DH hive worlders take a hit to Agility. in OW, hive worlders not only do not take a hit to Agility, but they may even get a bonus to it. Unfortunately, not a lot of home worlds exist between the two, and my copy of Inquisitor's Handbooks was elsewhere, so I couldn't get a good pool of data.

Anyways, I took some notes and went to bed. After reading through some of the conversion efforts here, one issue became apparent. Most people doing conversions seem to be content bringing DH characters into OW on the higher scale presented there (that approx. 1500 xp difference). I'm not sure how that sits with me. What people are presenting is the almost wreckless (compared to DH) offerings of characteristic bonuses here and there. I find myself on the other side of the fence, and more interested in stabilizing DH than buffing characters. Not that they don't need it, mind you, but it's always easier to add more xp than it is to take it away.

So for me, this is more of a directional concern. Should the lovable hobo-acolytes be buffed up to OW level, or should we be concerned with bringing the more stable OW rules to DH? In other words, are we bringing DH into OW, or OW into DH? Everyone seems to be taking the "DH into OW" approach, where DH material is improved and raised to the aforementioned scale. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm curious what it would look like to bring OW qualities like Aptitude advancement and usable combat into DH and "keeping the acolytes down," so to speak.

Thoughts?



#2 the 8 spider

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 06:43 AM

from france

similar situation and i post with justy 24h latter than you

i am wondering  how it could be convert just look at the storm trooper for example. to play it you need ascension



#3 Lynata

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:57 AM

ScooterinAB said:

So for me, this is more of a directional concern. Should the lovable hobo-acolytes be buffed up to OW level, or should we be concerned with bringing the more stable OW rules to DH? In other words, are we bringing DH into OW, or OW into DH?
It really comes down to how you as an individual player perceive and prefer your games. We all have different ideas about how an Inquisitorial cell should operate or how dangerous its members and certain classes should be, so it's not surprising that there are many ways to pursue here. On top of that, I've heard other posters mention a supposed "power creep" when comparing Black Industry's rules to those of FFG - and Dark Heresy's core rulebook and player supplement were still written by BI, which means that in a direct comparison they'll be the "odd man out".

Still, I am sure it is quite doable to modify the game the way you proposed, by implementing individual mechanics and rules from Only War into Dark Heresy rather than trying to reconstruct the latter using OW. Personally, I like the free nature that forms the basis of Only War's character generation (and thus makes it so easily moddable) too much for that, but that is merely a matter of preferences. Many of us have been implementing individual rules from other games (RT, DW) before, so why not do the same with OW if you like? All that matters is what you and your group are looking for in terms of style and ruleset features.


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia)

#4 ScooterinAB

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 01:53 PM

Lynata said:

ScooterinAB said:

So for me, this is more of a directional concern. Should the lovable hobo-acolytes be buffed up to OW level, or should we be concerned with bringing the more stable OW rules to DH? In other words, are we bringing DH into OW, or OW into DH?

It really comes down to how you as an individual player perceive and prefer your games. We all have different ideas about how an Inquisitorial cell should operate or how dangerous its members and certain classes should be, so it's not surprising that there are many ways to pursue here. On top of that, I've heard other posters mention a supposed "power creep" when comparing Black Industry's rules to those of FFG - and Dark Heresy's core rulebook and player supplement were still written by BI, which means that in a direct comparison they'll be the "odd man out".

 

Still, I am sure it is quite doable to modify the game the way you proposed, by implementing individual mechanics and rules from Only War into Dark Heresy rather than trying to reconstruct the latter using OW. Personally, I like the free nature that forms the basis of Only War's character generation (and thus makes it so easily moddable) too much for that, but that is merely a matter of preferences. Many of us have been implementing individual rules from other games (RT, DW) before, so why not do the same with OW if you like? All that matters is what you and your group are looking for in terms of style and ruleset features.

 

There's definately a power creep, which is the issue at heart. Dark Heresy was based on the much older Warhammer Roleplay rules, which were punishingly amusing. Only War and Black Crusade, on the other hand, are updated versions of those rules. There are clear differences in the design theories, which results in the scaling problem.

I too am interested in the freeform advancement seen in Black Crusade and Only War. What I mean is the scale presented from one to the other, despite them being the most comparable. By "directional," I mean the scale of Dark Heresy (being more forgiving, but still keeping the players down and anonymous) vs the conversions I've seen with Only War (where players are kind of awesome and get bonuses everywhere). I do agree though that it's up to each group to decide what works for them. I personally prefer characters coming to power and growing (like an origin story), while others might want their agents to kick more butt out of the gate.



#5 Lynata

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 03:59 PM

ScooterinAB said:

I too am interested in the freeform advancement seen in Black Crusade and Only War. What I mean is the scale presented from one to the other, despite them being the most comparable.

Hmm, if it's just this game's power level itself that disturbs you - would it not be an option to still use Only War, and simply turn down the bonuses? I don't think there are any rules per se that are focused on a high-powered game, and if there are (some psychic powers perhaps?), they should be relatively easy to alter.

 

ScooterinAB said:

I personally prefer characters coming to power and growing (like an origin story), while others might want their agents to kick more butt out of the gate.

Certainly, both approaches have their appeal, and Only War does not feel as if it would be intended to depict a squad of rookies. Then again, neither would I have expected this from Dark Heresy, given that the characters already had careers before being recruited into the Inquisition. I have to admit, the only "origin" I could see there is how the cell came to be, but not the characters themselves.

This brings me to the idea of potential short games with individual players, "true" origin stories, where a character's past life on their respective homeworld is touched upon, like in a sort of interactive flashback … but I digress! :)

As every so often with 40k, it's a matter of interpretation - and personal preferences. I'm actually surprised to see many people here refer to DH as the "hobo game", when it was always advertised as being about operatives of the Imperial Inquisition. In a way, however, I can understand this perception, for despite the game's focus, the mechanics inside make the characters feel almost comically unsupported and undergeared. Maybe I just always expected more from the premise (closer to GW's own "Inquisitor") than the designers actually intended. Or, no, that's not entirely correct either: the game picks up the pace later on, but by then the fast progress almost feels like your characters are doing time jumps. It's not really here nor there, if you get my drift.

I think I'm entirely with you regarding origin stories, but they should fit to the character's later role rather than binding him too much in the past that will soon become irrelevant. More like a "trial by fire" that serves as a connection between their old and their new life rather than having players feel obstructed by old shackles. In my opinion, the game's RAW read like they would contain way too much random looting, for example - and most characters' lives were too much defined by their class background rather than using this as a mere explanation for their specialist role in the new employment. With how people were supposed to earn their living, it almost felt like the authors thought that being in the Inquisition is a part time job that you're doing on the side, after your shift at the library is over.

Thinking about it, the power level in Dark Heresy - aside from the looting and the wages - seems fine by itself … it only gets suspicious when you compare it to the later games (or DH's own post-BI supplements), which is part of why I do not believe in the supposed compatibility of the material. Sure, you can mix things up with stuff from another of FFG's 40k RPGs … but you better adapt it to whatever your playing, else it'll break your game.


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia)

#6 vogue69

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:40 PM

we just use the armory and the combat-, talent-, skills- and trait-rules from only war. The rest stays the same.



#7 Ovid

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 08:06 AM

Someone has already posted a conversion here.






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