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Advantage & Threat vs. Fudge


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#1 I. J. Thompson

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 12:04 PM

First, let me preface this by saying that I haven't yet run EotE, nor do I expect to (though I'd love to). Second, for those unfamiliar with the term, let me offer this:

 

fudge

 [fuhj]
verb (used with object)
1.
to misreport the result of a hidden die roll, usually for the Player Characters' advantage.

 

 

As GMs, we've all done it. In my old D6 campaign, I did it a lot. Your players' characters are in an encounter that they're supposed to walk through, and they're getting beaten to smithereens. Or they're at the big climactic encounter, and they're mopping the floor with the Big Bad Evil Guy. Many's the time I've thought, "thank goodness for this GM screen", so that I could tell a player that their opponent just rolled all 1s, when he really just rolled all 6s. The player loves to hear the news, and everyone's happy with the result, except the GM… because the GM knows that he faked it. And later, when the players regale each other with tales of that awesome victory they all shared, the GM nods, and smiles, and feels like a bit of a fraud… because he fudged the roll.

But here comes Advantage and Threat.

Player's character getting beaten up by the Jawa merchant he was supposed to get directions to the local cantina from? Advantage: Jawa merchant says, "I'd really rather be two blocks away at Rick's Cantina than over here whooping your butt". PC knocking the stuffing out of your unkillable bounty hunter nemesis? Threat: bounty hunter notices that the PC has the name 'Mary' tattooed on his arm and, next adventure, is going to kidnap 'Mary' to lure the PC into a later encounter in a place where he has the upper hand.

In other words, I love that this system provides a built-in way for GMs to steer the adventure back to where it ought to be, in a way that pure numbers just can't. Pure storytelling, no fakery, and… no fudge! :)

[EDIT: text colour is wonky, and I can't fix it! Highlight to read atontado]



#2 awayputurwpn

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 04:20 PM

This. Very much. 

By the way, if you were to start a Play by Post I wouldn't say "no" to playing :) I don't know if that constitutes "running" EotE for your purposes, but just thought I'd throw that out there!



#3 Gamerunner

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 04:25 PM

The system is great. I'm half tempted to take a "major mental strain hit" to attempt to convert it to a fantasy version…but anyway.

Dont feel like a fraud. You ran what was obviously a great and memorable session, as the players have " tales of that awesome victory they all shared,"

You did nothing wrong or even fraudulent. Don't feel guilty. You did what all good GMs are supposed to do. Tell a good story, that the players had a hand in creating. Wether you fudged a roll or two or not, everyone had a great time. Nobody got angry because they lost a favorite character permenantly, or even temporiarily.

And speaking form experience… Don't tell your players what they missed out on, or that you threw the fight so they could win. Its sort of a secret GM tip, that we should all learn to lie very well, to our firends. Just remember to use your powers for the Light Side.



#4 Nimon

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 06:40 PM

 

   You want a fantasy version? Its called Warhammer Fantasy.



#5 awayputurwpn

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 07:58 PM

Nimon said:

 

   You want a fantasy version? Its called Warhammer Fantasy.

Nah. It's a different game system.

That'd be kind of like comparing Star Wars Saga edition to D&D 4e. They're designed with intentional similarity, but they are both distinct systems with different rulesets. 

Plus that, WHFRPG costs lots more money! So if you're the type that 1) loves the system, 2) has a limited budget, and 3) has the time and creative juices necessary to reskin a system, then there's no real downside to converting your favorite Star Wars system to another setting.

 



#6 Nimon

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 06:38 AM

 

           Its not that differant, but sure if you have the time do it. Time=Money for me.



#7 Sturn

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 08:49 AM

I completely agree. I always had a rule not to fudge and told my players so. I still did, but you can't have them thinking you do or it takes the enjoyment of victory away…Did the GM help us out again or was that a true victory? No need to roll behind a screen anymore. You WANT your players to see the results. If you interpret something to help or further hinder the players to save an encounter, it is not a fudge, just part of the system.

I would appreciate a fantasy version of this system even though I have most every Warhammer product. This system is FFG Warhammer 2.0 for Star Wars.  It's simpler and streamlined. Warhammer 1.0 is great, but if they did a second release it would benefit from some of the changes in this Star Wars version.



#8 Kallabecca

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 11:57 AM

Nimon said:

 

   You want a fantasy version? Its called Warhammer Fantasy.

Similar, but not the same… like the SW dice have nothing or positive results on the positive dice, and nothing or negative results on the negative dice. WHF is designed more around the dark and gritty fantasy world of Warhammer… Which isn't the same as all fantasy worlds.



#9 Nimon

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 05:43 PM

 

          Really splitting hairs here. I was just letting the guy know there is fanatasy system out there. If anything it is a place to start.



#10 Ulairi

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 07:10 AM

I never fudge the dice for my players. I let the dice fall as they may and that is how we develop the story. We're aren't writing a story or play acting. We're playing a game and the results from play and our actions tell the story. I think once you start fudging the dice, you're breaking the physics of the world. But, I'm weird. 



#11 aramis

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:42 AM

Ulairi said:

I never fudge the dice for my players. I let the dice fall as they may and that is how we develop the story. We're aren't writing a story or play acting. We're playing a game and the results from play and our actions tell the story. I think once you start fudging the dice, you're breaking the physics of the world. But, I'm weird. 

I used to fudge, but discovered it's much more fun for me to simply accept their input and move on from there. 

I've also taken Vincent's Admonition to heart in recent years: "Say yes or roll the dice" - tho' I will occasionally say "no" instead. And to take a page from Luke Crane, and tell them the base difficulty before they commit to the action.

And I don't allow retries without limit anymore - MegaTraveller had mechanics for limiting retries, and I've found that the "Let It Ride" rule in Burning Wheel is generally better still… roll once, and carry that result forward until the situation changes significantly. One stealth roll gets you all the way in… or stops you short when you encounter the actualy alert guards.






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