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#1 shadow9d9

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 05:24 AM

Played the core set twice now and a bunch of questions popped up.

1.  To use a response on a character card, do you need to kneel if it doesn't specify to kneel?

2.  Is there a limit to how many attachments a character could have?

3.  Can you use character abilities in "any phase" even if you are already kneeled(if ability does not specify needing kneeling)?

4.  For any phase abilities, could you use them after defenders are declared?

5.  Is it just me or are many of the plot cards in the core set worthless or just plain bad for you?  For example, one Targaryn(sp?) plot card had the opponent killing one of your character cards.. when I get more expansions, are there alternative plot cards that are less painful?

 

Also, Lannister seems especially weak compared to the 2 other core house sets...

 

Thanks!



#2 Lars

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 06:05 AM

shadow9d9 said:

Played the core set twice now and a bunch of questions popped up.

1.  To use a response on a character card, do you need to kneel if it doesn't specify to kneel?

2.  Is there a limit to how many attachments a character could have?

3.  Can you use character abilities in "any phase" even if you are already kneeled(if ability does not specify needing kneeling)?

4.  For any phase abilities, could you use them after defenders are declared?

5.  Is it just me or are many of the plot cards in the core set worthless or just plain bad for you?  For example, one Targaryn(sp?) plot card had the opponent killing one of your character cards.. when I get more expansions, are there alternative plot cards that are less painful?

 

Also, Lannister seems especially weak compared to the 2 other core house sets...

 

Thanks!

1) nope.

2) not unless the card says otherwise

3) yup, see 1

4) nope, no action window have to wait till after the challenge

5) wel, they aren't shining examples of the power of plot cards, and the one you specifically mention should only be played in melee where you can negotiate with the person you pick

6*) lannister is a bit difficult to handle in the core set for newer players but is by no means weak, it just takes a different set of skills thewn the other 3 to maximize the value. Once you can start building your own decks lannister will be a lot better.



#3 Rozy

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 06:18 AM

shadow9d9 said:

 

Played the core set twice now and a bunch of questions popped up.

1.  To use a response on a character card, do you need to kneel if it doesn't specify to kneel?

2.  Is there a limit to how many attachments a character could have?

3.  Can you use character abilities in "any phase" even if you are already kneeled(if ability does not specify needing kneeling)?

4.  For any phase abilities, could you use them after defenders are declared?

5.  Is it just me or are many of the plot cards in the core set worthless or just plain bad for you?  For example, one Targaryn(sp?) plot card had the opponent killing one of your character cards.. when I get more expansions, are there alternative plot cards that are less painful?

 

Also, Lannister seems especially weak compared to the 2 other core house sets...

 

Thanks!

 

 

1. NO, of it does not specifically say so, you dont have to kneel him. You can even you a response: on a character that is already knelt.

2. NO, a character can a any number of attachments unless some of the cards does not specifie it otherwise. Eg. Cat o the Canals says that she can have only a single weapon attachment. Or Heritage of the Dragon says that character cannot have other attachments. And one more think, same as with the characters you can have only ONE copy of a UNIQUE attachment in play.

3. I am not sure if I understand correctly but you can you a characters Any Phase: or diferent ability if the character is already kneeling if kneeling is not part of the cost. So for example you can use Drogons ability even if Drogon is kneeling.

4. Yes, there are some windows when you can play abilities. Look in the FAQ they are closely described there.

5. In a lot of the expansion there are more plots, but the Targaryens killing plot is just bad in joust (1vs1 game) in melee (multiplayer) it is awesome. He does not have to kill YOUR charater in can be any other opponent in the melee game.



#4 Arma virumque

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 06:26 AM

shadow9d9 said:

4.  For any phase abilities, could you use them after defenders are declared?

5.  Is it just me or are many of the plot cards in the core set worthless or just plain bad for you?  For example, one Targaryn(sp?) plot card had the opponent killing one of your character cards.. when I get more expansions, are there alternative plot cards that are less painful?

Welcome to the game!

I'll add just a couple of thoughts to what Lars just said:

#4:  Once you've digested the core set rules, you will find some great support resources at new.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp, including a brand-new video tutorial.  You will also find an FAQ document that contains flowcharts to answer questions about the timing of triggered effects such as the any phase abilities that you asked about in #4.  (FYI -- when Lars used the phrase "action window" in his response, he was referring to a technical term that's defined in this FAQ.)

#5:  As Lars mentioned, some of the plot cards in the core set are really intended for multiplayer games (called "melee").  When I play one-on-one games ("joust") with just the core set decks, my opponent and I agree to ignore the text on some of those cards.  There certainly are other plot cards available in some of the expansions (which are called "chapter packs," by the way).  You can find lists of all the cards in each chapter pack at www.tzumainn.com/agot/cards/.  The pack "Ancient Enemies" is often recommended because it contains a set of six great plot cards (one for each house).



#5 ktom

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 06:29 AM

The Core Set Lannister deck, as is, is not particularly well suited to the multiplayer game. They are, however, very good in one-on-one, particularly once you start using multiples of the key cards instead of relying on the luck of the draw. The other thing, particularly for people who are new to the game, is that Lannister is the House with the most "moving parts." Individual cards may not seem as strong, but they have a lot of cards that work together and end up being more than the "sum of the parts." They're hard to play, though, because you have to REMEMBER all of those moving parts to get the full effect of their sneakiness/strategy.

In our group, Lanni pretty well rules the LCG-Joust. Not that it always wins, but it always lets the other player know they were in a fight.

 

On your #4 question, here is the basic anatomy of a challenge:

1) Before the active player attacks, all players take turns (going clockwise from the First Player) triggering player actions (Any Phase or Challenges effects) one at a time. When no one has any more to use, the active player may attack.

2) The active player attacks by a) announcing the challenge type and opponent, and b) declaring/kneeling their attackers. Nothing can be done between a) and b), including passive effects.

3) As in #1, players take turns triggering Any Phase or Challenges effects one at a time until no one has any more they want to do.

4) Defense of the challenge is determined by a) the attacking player choosing Stealth targets (if an attacking character has Stealth), and b) the defending player declaring/kneeling their defenders (unless the choose to let the challenge go unopposed). Again, nothing can be done between a) and b), including passive effects.

5) As in #1 and #3, players take turns triggering Any Phase or Challenges effects one at a time until no one has any more they want to do.

6) The challenge is resolved by a) determining who wins by adding and comparing the total attacking STR to the total defending STR, b) settling claim, c) awarding power if the challenge was unopposed and d) awarding power for Renown if any characters on the winning side have it. Nothing can be done between a), b), c) or d) (except for "save" Responses; "save" and "cancel" Responses are the only things in the game that can interrupt things), including passive effects. Passives and Responses to anything that happens in a-d is held until after d) is complete.

7) Go back to #1 for the next challenge.

 

So the answer to your question ("For any phase abilities, could you use them after defenders are declared?") the short answer is "yes," but there is more to the timing rules than that. The above "anatomy" may help keep things straight.



#6 Rozy

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 06:51 AM

Since you made such a nice expample can I have just two brief questions to confirm something.

1. After the last players is done with the last challenge noone can play challenge: or any phase: effects in challenge phase, since there is no window anymore right?

2. If I cancel claim effect by Catelyn Stark (AHoTa) there is no more c) and d) part of the challenge resolving window, so there is not going to be any power awarded for unopposed and no power for renown and aditional effects. Then there will be also no more effects that could react on the challenge, like after you win challenge by 4 or more STR etc. right?



#7 ktom

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 07:34 AM

Rozy said:

1. After the last players is done with the last challenge noone can play challenge: or any phase: effects in challenge phase, since there is no window anymore right?

Well, yes and no. This gets a little complicated, so bear with me.

When you look at the flow in the FAQ, there is a line going from the "resolve challenge" framework action window back to the pre-challenge player action window. That line says "Active Player's next challenge opportunity." It's the word "opportunity" that's key here. There are effects in the game that allow you to have more than 3 challenges. So even if I am the last player and I have already performed the 3 challenges the rulebook gives me, there is still an opportunity for me to do more challenges if I can create the conditions. So at the end of my 3rd challenge, the flowchart loops back to that pre-challenge player action window and all players have the opportunity to play those Challenge or Any Phase effects. After all those are done, we move to the "initiate challenge" framework window and I fail to initiate a challenge. All my opportunities are thus over. We pass very quickly through the rest of the windows because they aren't valid without a declared attack. Then, when nothing initiates in the "resolve challenge" framework window, we move to the "active player is finished with challenges" window and, since everyone else has already been the active player, we move through that window to the "End Phase" window instead of looping back with a new active player.

So that's the long, involved answer. The short answer is that no, after the last player's 3rd challenge resolves, players can play effects because the loop hasn't closed yet. But, once the loop is closed, yes, no one can play anything before the end of the phase takes place.

I hope that made sense....

Rozy said:

2. If I cancel claim effect by Catelyn Stark (AHoTa) there is no more c) and d) part of the challenge resolving window, so there is not going to be any power awarded for unopposed and no power for renown and aditional effects. Then there will be also no more effects that could react on the challenge, like after you win challenge by 4 or more STR etc. right?

This is incorrect. You have to read the part about how the framework action window works carefully. For each of the framework events (in this case, there are 4 of them; 1. Determine the winner, 2. Settle claim, 3. Award unopposed, and 4. Award Renown), you cycle through Steps 1-3 of the action window separately. That means that when you cancel claim, you ONLY cancel that framework event, not all 4 of them. After all framework events have cycled through Steps 1-3, you continue on to a common Steps 4-6 for all of them.

In practical terms, this means the only thing HoTal-Catelyn cancels is the initiation of claim. The challenge still happened (so the attacker cannot initiate another one of the same type). The attacker still won the challenge (event #1), so unopposed and Renown (events #3 & 4) would still be awarded. Essentially, you resolve the challenge as if it had 0 claim. Deadly is still there, for example. So is Vigilant and Vengeful. Of course, part of Catelyn's effect is that she prevents your opponents from playing Responses to the challenge resolution, so even though, say "winning/losing by 4 or more," "win/lose an unopposed challenge" or "character claims power for Renown" are still there to be Responded to, your opponents can't take advantage of it. You can, though....



#8 shadow9d9

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 07:56 AM

Great, thanks for the responses and resources!






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