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#1 Alex6222

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 12:20 PM

This is not related to the game but to the lore. So after Isildur cutted his finger he became an eye or di he assumed a poor human form? I ask beacuse i have seen debates wether if the eye was a metaphor and also the line that says Gollum that Sauron had four fingers makes me wonder if he assumed a human body? So which is it?



#2 shipwreck

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 02:07 PM

Good question! After Elendil and Gil-galad defeated Sauron and Isildur took the Ring, Sauron's spirit fled the scene. Centuries later he began to rebuild his former strength in Dol Guldur and then returned to Mordor in physical form. The Eye represents Sauron's "thought" peering here and there in Middle-earth, though there is something physical about because when Frodo sees Barad Dur he seems some kind of orange eye (the exact words eacape me).

Things get muddled in the movie because Gandalf says something about him not being able to take physical form, and because the Eye is everywhere. The four finger line is evidence enough, but even practically speaking, how would a spirit put on a Ring?

There are far better explanations out there, citing some of Tolkien's essays on how spirit beings operate in his world, but hopefully that gets you started. It's all I can do right now, typing on the iPad :)

 

edit: The quote is in the Mt. Doom chapter, and Frodo sees "a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye". I reckon this is the line that Peter Jackson ran with when creating the Eye of the movies. Is it an actual eye, or representative of Sauron's power, or did Frodo alone see it because he was the Ringbearer (he says earlier that he sees a ring of fire with his waking eyes)? Anyways. Some food for thought, but the link below quotes Tolkien as confirming Sauron's bodily form so there is little to debate.


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#3 shipwreck

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 02:12 PM

Here you are…

http://www.glyphweb....auronshape.html


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#4 flightmaster101

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 03:48 PM

That gives me an idea for a card:

 

Sauron

Engagement cost: 1

threat x

Att x

Def x 

hp x

x is the number of people on earth.

 



#5 richsabre

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:35 PM

yes- as shipwreck points out, its a metaphor that has unfortunatly stuck. if you look at an encounter card from HoN you will see the eye peeking through from the tower….i think its on the last quest.

edit- completely forgot about the eye on the back of the cards…..duh…

i had a forum thread going about it here

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#6 Ellareth

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:42 AM

Short version, Sauron definitely had a physical shape.

 

I haven't read the source materials for a while, but I am very positive that there is no evidence there is a gigantic burning eyeball on top of Barad-Dur.

 

This is just my guess, but Sauron probably used Ithil Stone to gather informations that people/orcs thought he didn't know, used that said information to hand out few punishments, declared he is all-knowing and all-seeing and nothing is hidden from him, put Red Eye everywhere to remind his subjects that he will be 'watching' their every move (like how Gondorians use White Tree to remind themselves they are heirs of Numenor).

After all, Sauron did few other tricks to make sure Easterlings and Haradhrims worship him as god (like burning his entire body to show that fire has no effect on him.) With Ithil Stone, it would've been easy for Sauron to make his enemy/subjects believe nothing is hidden from him. (If I remember correctly, when Orcs from Mordor and Urukais from Isengard are argueing about where to take Merry and Pippin, the Orcs of Mordor retreats as they are out matched at the time. But they hint whatever Saruman is upto, Sauron already knows about it)

We hear many spooky things about Sauron like the "Sleepless Malice watches from the Dark Tower", or there is an "Evil Will guards over the mountains of terror" (or something along those lines. Cannot remember the exact words). But in the end, Sauron couldn't even sense the Ring entering his own realm.

In the book, Gandalf says that Sauron's strength was actually lot weaker than what he feared it to be during the Council of Elrond and I say Gandalf was right, all this talk about Red Eye is just big scam Sauron did to spread fear to his enemies and subjects using Ithil Stone.



#7 Alex6222

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 04:18 AM

Okay that clears it up, thanks for all your answer and links that was very heplful.



#8 iznax

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 06:29 AM

  Thumbs Up sonreir


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#9 Gizlivadi

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 09:05 AM

Ellareth said:

 

Short version, Sauron definitely had a physical shape.

 

I haven't read the source materials for a while, but I am very positive that there is no evidence there is a gigantic burning eyeball on top of Barad-Dur.

 

This is just my guess, but Sauron probably used Ithil Stone to gather informations that people/orcs thought he didn't know, used that said information to hand out few punishments, declared he is all-knowing and all-seeing and nothing is hidden from him, put Red Eye everywhere to remind his subjects that he will be 'watching' their every move (like how Gondorians use White Tree to remind themselves they are heirs of Numenor).

After all, Sauron did few other tricks to make sure Easterlings and Haradhrims worship him as god (like burning his entire body to show that fire has no effect on him.) With Ithil Stone, it would've been easy for Sauron to make his enemy/subjects believe nothing is hidden from him. (If I remember correctly, when Orcs from Mordor and Urukais from Isengard are argueing about where to take Merry and Pippin, the Orcs of Mordor retreats as they are out matched at the time. But they hint whatever Saruman is upto, Sauron already knows about it)

We hear many spooky things about Sauron like the "Sleepless Malice watches from the Dark Tower", or there is an "Evil Will guards over the mountains of terror" (or something along those lines. Cannot remember the exact words). But in the end, Sauron couldn't even sense the Ring entering his own realm.

In the book, Gandalf says that Sauron's strength was actually lot weaker than what he feared it to be during the Council of Elrond and I say Gandalf was right, all this talk about Red Eye is just big scam Sauron did to spread fear to his enemies and subjects using Ithil Stone.

 

 

 

People are quick to assume that the whole idea of the Eye is a metaphor since Sauron's emblem is the Eye and since it is not very clear whether there was or not a gigantic burning eye in the top of Barad-Dur. But a quick look at the Rotk shows that at least that image was not something completely invented by Jackson:

"Far off the Shadows of Sauron hung; but torn by some gust of wind out of the world, or else moved by some great disquiet within, the mantling clouds swirled and for a moment drew aside; and then he saw, rising black, blacker and darker than the vast shades amid which it stood, the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-Dur.

One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed. The Eye was not turned toward them; it was gazing north to were the Captains of the West stood at bay, and thither all its malice was now bent, as the power moved to strike its deadly blow; but Frodo at that dreadful glimpse fell as one stricken mortally."

There are also numerous other references to a certain "Window of the Eye" in the books too. That said, it's still a little vague, but it's certain in the passage that Frodo indeed saw something at the top of the tower of Barad Dur, and that something was gazing northward. So sorry, Ellareth, but I wouldn't say that there's no evidence for the Eye being at the top of the tower. Sure, the idea was rendered somewhat ridiculous by the films, and recently the idea that all was just a metaphor derived from the emblem used by Sauron has come up a lot on the internet in places where people are very critical of the films (like this one), and while I haven't really made my mind on the matter, I certainly would not discard the idea completely.


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#10 richsabre

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 11:55 AM

Gizlivadi said:

Ellareth said:

 

Short version, Sauron definitely had a physical shape.

 

I haven't read the source materials for a while, but I am very positive that there is no evidence there is a gigantic burning eyeball on top of Barad-Dur.

 

This is just my guess, but Sauron probably used Ithil Stone to gather informations that people/orcs thought he didn't know, used that said information to hand out few punishments, declared he is all-knowing and all-seeing and nothing is hidden from him, put Red Eye everywhere to remind his subjects that he will be 'watching' their every move (like how Gondorians use White Tree to remind themselves they are heirs of Numenor).

After all, Sauron did few other tricks to make sure Easterlings and Haradhrims worship him as god (like burning his entire body to show that fire has no effect on him.) With Ithil Stone, it would've been easy for Sauron to make his enemy/subjects believe nothing is hidden from him. (If I remember correctly, when Orcs from Mordor and Urukais from Isengard are argueing about where to take Merry and Pippin, the Orcs of Mordor retreats as they are out matched at the time. But they hint whatever Saruman is upto, Sauron already knows about it)

We hear many spooky things about Sauron like the "Sleepless Malice watches from the Dark Tower", or there is an "Evil Will guards over the mountains of terror" (or something along those lines. Cannot remember the exact words). But in the end, Sauron couldn't even sense the Ring entering his own realm.

In the book, Gandalf says that Sauron's strength was actually lot weaker than what he feared it to be during the Council of Elrond and I say Gandalf was right, all this talk about Red Eye is just big scam Sauron did to spread fear to his enemies and subjects using Ithil Stone.

 

 

 

People are quick to assume that the whole idea of the Eye is a metaphor since Sauron's emblem is the Eye and since it is not very clear whether there was or not a gigantic burning eye in the top of Barad-Dur. But a quick look at the Rotk shows that at least that image was not something completely invented by Jackson:

"Far off the Shadows of Sauron hung; but torn by some gust of wind out of the world, or else moved by some great disquiet within, the mantling clouds swirled and for a moment drew aside; and then he saw, rising black, blacker and darker than the vast shades amid which it stood, the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-Dur.

One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed. The Eye was not turned toward them; it was gazing north to were the Captains of the West stood at bay, and thither all its malice was now bent, as the power moved to strike its deadly blow; but Frodo at that dreadful glimpse fell as one stricken mortally."

There are also numerous other references to a certain "Window of the Eye" in the books too. That said, it's still a little vague, but it's certain in the passage that Frodo indeed saw something at the top of the tower of Barad Dur, and that something was gazing northward. So sorry, Ellareth, but I wouldn't say that there's no evidence for the Eye being at the top of the tower. Sure, the idea was rendered somewhat ridiculous by the films, and recently the idea that all was just a metaphor derived from the emblem used by Sauron has come up a lot on the internet in places where people are very critical of the films (like this one), and while I haven't really made my mind on the matter, I certainly would not discard the idea completely.

i have always read this, and other similar passages as meaning saurons actual eye….obviously attached to the rest of him. the eye is his gaze upon frodo.

given the detail of saurons hand and sighting by gollum, aragorns vision in the palantir, i would say that the eye is certainly a metaphor.  the window of the eye i would say is a room for sauron to gaze over his domain

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#11 Gizlivadi

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 12:26 PM

richsabre said:

 

Gizlivadi said:

 

Ellareth said:

 

Short version, Sauron definitely had a physical shape.

 

I haven't read the source materials for a while, but I am very positive that there is no evidence there is a gigantic burning eyeball on top of Barad-Dur.

 

This is just my guess, but Sauron probably used Ithil Stone to gather informations that people/orcs thought he didn't know, used that said information to hand out few punishments, declared he is all-knowing and all-seeing and nothing is hidden from him, put Red Eye everywhere to remind his subjects that he will be 'watching' their every move (like how Gondorians use White Tree to remind themselves they are heirs of Numenor).

After all, Sauron did few other tricks to make sure Easterlings and Haradhrims worship him as god (like burning his entire body to show that fire has no effect on him.) With Ithil Stone, it would've been easy for Sauron to make his enemy/subjects believe nothing is hidden from him. (If I remember correctly, when Orcs from Mordor and Urukais from Isengard are argueing about where to take Merry and Pippin, the Orcs of Mordor retreats as they are out matched at the time. But they hint whatever Saruman is upto, Sauron already knows about it)

We hear many spooky things about Sauron like the "Sleepless Malice watches from the Dark Tower", or there is an "Evil Will guards over the mountains of terror" (or something along those lines. Cannot remember the exact words). But in the end, Sauron couldn't even sense the Ring entering his own realm.

In the book, Gandalf says that Sauron's strength was actually lot weaker than what he feared it to be during the Council of Elrond and I say Gandalf was right, all this talk about Red Eye is just big scam Sauron did to spread fear to his enemies and subjects using Ithil Stone.

 

 

 

People are quick to assume that the whole idea of the Eye is a metaphor since Sauron's emblem is the Eye and since it is not very clear whether there was or not a gigantic burning eye in the top of Barad-Dur. But a quick look at the Rotk shows that at least that image was not something completely invented by Jackson:

"Far off the Shadows of Sauron hung; but torn by some gust of wind out of the world, or else moved by some great disquiet within, the mantling clouds swirled and for a moment drew aside; and then he saw, rising black, blacker and darker than the vast shades amid which it stood, the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-Dur.

One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed. The Eye was not turned toward them; it was gazing north to were the Captains of the West stood at bay, and thither all its malice was now bent, as the power moved to strike its deadly blow; but Frodo at that dreadful glimpse fell as one stricken mortally."

There are also numerous other references to a certain "Window of the Eye" in the books too. That said, it's still a little vague, but it's certain in the passage that Frodo indeed saw something at the top of the tower of Barad Dur, and that something was gazing northward. So sorry, Ellareth, but I wouldn't say that there's no evidence for the Eye being at the top of the tower. Sure, the idea was rendered somewhat ridiculous by the films, and recently the idea that all was just a metaphor derived from the emblem used by Sauron has come up a lot on the internet in places where people are very critical of the films (like this one), and while I haven't really made my mind on the matter, I certainly would not discard the idea completely.

 

 

i have always read this, and other similar passages as meaning saurons actual eye….obviously attached to the rest of him. the eye is his gaze upon frodo.

given the detail of saurons hand and sighting by gollum, aragorns vision in the palantir, i would say that the eye is certainly a metaphor.  the window of the eye i would say is a room for sauron to gaze over his domain

rich

 

 

 

Interesting. Could be, but then why does Frodo see only one eye? And would not it be extremely far away and small for him to be able to see it (besides Sauron having to be, like, leaning over the edge of the tower so the eye is not inside the tower). It sounds strange IMO. But who knows, it could be a giant telescope from which Sauron watches over for all we know.


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#12 Ellareth

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 01:01 PM

Gizlivadi said:

Ellareth said:

 

Short version, Sauron definitely had a physical shape.

 

I haven't read the source materials for a while, but I am very positive that there is no evidence there is a gigantic burning eyeball on top of Barad-Dur.

 

This is just my guess, but Sauron probably used Ithil Stone to gather informations that people/orcs thought he didn't know, used that said information to hand out few punishments, declared he is all-knowing and all-seeing and nothing is hidden from him, put Red Eye everywhere to remind his subjects that he will be 'watching' their every move (like how Gondorians use White Tree to remind themselves they are heirs of Numenor).

After all, Sauron did few other tricks to make sure Easterlings and Haradhrims worship him as god (like burning his entire body to show that fire has no effect on him.) With Ithil Stone, it would've been easy for Sauron to make his enemy/subjects believe nothing is hidden from him. (If I remember correctly, when Orcs from Mordor and Urukais from Isengard are argueing about where to take Merry and Pippin, the Orcs of Mordor retreats as they are out matched at the time. But they hint whatever Saruman is upto, Sauron already knows about it)

We hear many spooky things about Sauron like the "Sleepless Malice watches from the Dark Tower", or there is an "Evil Will guards over the mountains of terror" (or something along those lines. Cannot remember the exact words). But in the end, Sauron couldn't even sense the Ring entering his own realm.

In the book, Gandalf says that Sauron's strength was actually lot weaker than what he feared it to be during the Council of Elrond and I say Gandalf was right, all this talk about Red Eye is just big scam Sauron did to spread fear to his enemies and subjects using Ithil Stone.

 

 

 

People are quick to assume that the whole idea of the Eye is a metaphor since Sauron's emblem is the Eye and since it is not very clear whether there was or not a gigantic burning eye in the top of Barad-Dur. But a quick look at the Rotk shows that at least that image was not something completely invented by Jackson:

"Far off the Shadows of Sauron hung; but torn by some gust of wind out of the world, or else moved by some great disquiet within, the mantling clouds swirled and for a moment drew aside; and then he saw, rising black, blacker and darker than the vast shades amid which it stood, the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-Dur.

One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed. The Eye was not turned toward them; it was gazing north to were the Captains of the West stood at bay, and thither all its malice was now bent, as the power moved to strike its deadly blow; but Frodo at that dreadful glimpse fell as one stricken mortally."

There are also numerous other references to a certain "Window of the Eye" in the books too. That said, it's still a little vague, but it's certain in the passage that Frodo indeed saw something at the top of the tower of Barad Dur, and that something was gazing northward. So sorry, Ellareth, but I wouldn't say that there's no evidence for the Eye being at the top of the tower. Sure, the idea was rendered somewhat ridiculous by the films, and recently the idea that all was just a metaphor derived from the emblem used by Sauron has come up a lot on the internet in places where people are very critical of the films (like this one), and while I haven't really made my mind on the matter, I certainly would not discard the idea completely.

 

These are some excellent points, but I am still not convinced of the existence of "The Eye".

Sauron covered himself with burning flame to impress the Easterlings and Southrons and to be worshipped by the gods so that could explain all the metaphors about fire and flame and all that.

As for 'The Eye', I think it is some kind of combination of Sauron's magic + Ithil Stone.
Until Lord of the Rings, there are no mentions of Sauron being able to see through great distances so I am assuming Sauron only gained that power after acquiring the Ithil Stone and bending it to his Will.

 

While I agree the idea of physical existence of "The Eye" is not entirely impossible, I still think Sauron's magic + Ithil Stone is far more likely explanation.

 

P.S. I really enjoyed the LotR Trilogy movies and The Hobbit movie that have just came out. I do sometimes complain about few minor details Peter Jackson has changed, but that is because I am a fan, not an anti-fan.






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