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Wedge more powerful after Wave 2?


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#1 hothie

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 03:43 PM

So, I've been looking at squads with Wave 2 ships, and I fnd myself adding Stealth Device a lot. Because really, who couldn't use an extra Defense die for 3 points?

So you have a TIE fighter with Agility 3, now with Stealth Device it's a 4, Range 3 through an asteroid is now 6 dice!!!!!

And for Rebels, you can have R2F2 and Stealth Device to up your Agility by 2.

But then I got thinking, how do you counter that? One word: Wedge.

So, with the Stealth Device now in the game, does that mean Wedge is now a must-have for Rebel squads? Not that he wasn't before, but I mean REALLY a must-have now?

 



#2 CaptainRook

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 03:49 PM

He has not ceased being the point man, if anything, I agree…he is now not only highly valuable, but a necessity.  I don't see Stealth being mocked, and let's say we give Wedge Push The Limit and an R2 Astromech.  No further need for Garven or Dutch to exploit a Focus+TL combo, and Torpedoes become more filler than they ever were(Welcome filler in my lists, but filler nonetheless)….so now you're free to bring other powerhouses in your list as well.  If you have the points at the tail end of your list construction?  Throw a mod on there.


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#3 cert13

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 03:49 PM

I think Wedge well always be the backbone or quarterback for the majority of Rebel builds until the release a pilot or wing commander who has a on card stat line that mirrors squad leader.


Wedge Antilles: The only character from the original series that appears in all three movies, has only one costume, and still manages to help destroy TWO Death Stars.

 


#4 DeadInkPen

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:43 PM

I have been thinking about doing a 3 X-Wing build once all the wave 2 stuff is out.

Biggs+R2F2+Stealth Device for 36 points

Luke+R2D2+Draw Their Fire for 33

Wedge+Expose+Stealth Device for 31

Basic plan is to have Luke take Crits meant for Biggs to give Wedge time to really lay down some pain using Expose hopefully at range 1. Wedge gets really scary with expose on him. 



#5 Torresse

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:17 PM

DeadInkPen said:

I have been thinking about doing a 3 X-Wing build once all the wave 2 stuff is out.

Biggs+R2F2+Stealth Device for 36 points

Luke+R2D2+Draw Their Fire for 33

Wedge+Expose+Stealth Device for 31

Basic plan is to have Luke take Crits meant for Biggs to give Wedge time to really lay down some pain using Expose hopefully at range 1. Wedge gets really scary with expose on him. 

same exact squad I thought about! I was talking to my friend on the kessal run night how you can get Biggs to defend with 6 dice, and then you give Wedge Expose *starts to gasp*  2 vs 6 and 5 vs 2 :D:D:D:D:D::DD:D


This is one of the main reasons Xwing is awesome! http://community.fan...ake-long/page-4


#6 CaptainRook

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:41 PM

Just make sure you never expose if someone can target you.  1 extra di is not really better than focus or target lock, at least how I've read the charts that ShadowJak has made, but I'm citing that from memory.  I'd rather have Wedge with PtL and an R2.


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#7 DeadInkPen

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:45 PM

I know what you mean. My buddy keeps on going on and on about how powerful Scarlet will be with having the Ion Cannon and Gunner. That he is always going to have a ship with the ion token and multiple stress tokens on it. I keep on trying to point out to him that her ability is a bit too circumstantial. With crits only being around 10% chance per die.



#8 CaptainRook

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:26 PM

I think it's something like 12.25%.  Considering that you'll likely only score 1 hit, abilities that activate as a result of a crit, are typically useless.  They are likely to be absorbed by a shield, or the ship is likely to be destroyed before the crit can have any effect worth mentioning.  While Y-Wings, YT-1300s, and Firespray increase the viability of these effects, I don't find any abilities that activate with a critical hit as a prerequisite worthwhile.  Likewise, abilities that turn a hit into a crit aren't entirely worthwhile, either.


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#9 kmanweiss

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:59 AM

DeadInkPen said:

I have been thinking about doing a 3 X-Wing build once all the wave 2 stuff is out.

Biggs+R2F2+Stealth Device for 36 points

Luke+R2D2+Draw Their Fire for 33

Wedge+Expose+Stealth Device for 31

Basic plan is to have Luke take Crits meant for Biggs to give Wedge time to really lay down some pain using Expose hopefully at range 1. Wedge gets really scary with expose on him. 

 

I've been a strong supporter of the 4-ship rebel builds.  But Wave 2 could really mix that up.  The above combo is amazingly powerful and could really put the hurt on the empire.  Also, the Empire is more likely to play fewer ships with the new models available.



#10 Inksplat

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:52 AM

Don't forget A-Wings and their missiles. Homing Missiles are pretty likely to land a hit, and Assault Missiles can strip it off of multiple ships at the same time.



#11 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:18 AM

DeadInkPen said:

I know what you mean. My buddy keeps on going on and on about how powerful Scarlet will be with having the Ion Cannon and Gunner. That he is always going to have a ship with the ion token and multiple stress tokens on it. I keep on trying to point out to him that her ability is a bit too circumstantial. With crits only being around 10% chance per die.

Your friend has a good point, in a way. Kath has a 33% chance to roll at least one critical with the ion cannon; either your opponent is hit by the ion cannon (yay!), or it dodges the critical hit and gets a stress token (yay!)

But while the card text for the ion cannon says "Then cancel all dice results", I don't think that counts as your opponent canceling the result. (It's much more reasonable to say that it's either the card itself or the attacking player canceling results on the attack dice.) So Kath's ability doesn't activate unless the opponent cancels a critical result by assigning an evade result to it. So it's unlikely that you would assign both an ion token and a stress token with the same attack; you'd have to roll at least two criticals, with at least one canceled by your opponent's roll, in order to have that outcome.

To me, that chance (almost certainly under 5%) isn't worth building around--particularly not when, unlike the Firespray's equally strong primary weapon, you can't actually deal a critical hit with an ion cannon.

***

Back on topic: I think Wedge is going to continue to enjoy a lot of popularity in Wave 2. He's no longer the only skill 9 pilot, but he is by far the cheaper of the two, and he's going to be prized in Rebel/Imperial matches for his ability to pick off TIE Interceptors, and even more prized in Rebel mirror matches as a YT-1300 killer.

And as hothie noted, the Wave 2 upgrades make him even better than he was before: Push The Limit + R2 Astromech is an incredibly potent combo, Expose all by itself makes him even more dangerous than before, and Elusiveness + R2 Astromech is a nice way to mitigate his major drawback (particularly in combination with a Shield Upgrade, if you can afford it). 

I'm on the fence about Stealth on a typical X-wing, because it's a relatively expensive upgrade that's fairly easy to take out of play--but I'm curious about it, especially for Luke. (Luke + Elusiveness + Stealth… heh, heh.)



#12 Tawnos

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:20 PM

DeadInkPen said:

I know what you mean. My buddy keeps on going on and on about how powerful Scarlet will be with having the Ion Cannon and Gunner. That he is always going to have a ship with the ion token and multiple stress tokens on it. I keep on trying to point out to him that her ability is a bit too circumstantial. With crits only being around 10% chance per die.

I played a game today where I fielded Scarlet with Marksmanship and a Gunner.  It was interesting, but I didn't get to use it enough to really pass judgment on it.  I think the idea is solid, but my manuevering was subpar.  The idea is that they can either eat crits; or soak them, be stressed, and get shot again (possibly accruing more stress tokens in the process!).

I'm constantly on the lookout for ways to make Marksmanship useful, which it is not in 99% of cases.



#13 CaptainRook

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:46 PM

Tawnos said:

DeadInkPen said:

 

I know what you mean. My buddy keeps on going on and on about how powerful Scarlet will be with having the Ion Cannon and Gunner. That he is always going to have a ship with the ion token and multiple stress tokens on it. I keep on trying to point out to him that her ability is a bit too circumstantial. With crits only being around 10% chance per die.

 

 

I played a game today where I fielded Scarlet with Marksmanship and a Gunner.  It was interesting, but I didn't get to use it enough to really pass judgment on it.  I think the idea is solid, but my manuevering was subpar.  The idea is that they can either eat crits; or soak them, be stressed, and get shot again (possibly accruing more stress tokens in the process!).

I'm constantly on the lookout for ways to make Marksmanship useful, which it is not in 99% of cases.

I was really disappointed in Marksmanship.  I would have hoped with a card titled like that, it would improve my chances to just hit something in general not reach out for an effect that barely takes hold, ever. 


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#14 Xnath

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:53 PM

Tie Interceptor with shealth on it is pretty good.  I played the tie interceptor level 9 pilot with stealth and that was fun.  

I cant wait to own those ships.  

 



#15 Picasso

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:53 AM

The thing about tricking Wedge out is it leaves you with few points to field support ships. The next question is what support ships do you field?  Biggs?  Do you trick him out just to keep Wedge alive?  Is that enough against an eight tie swarm?  Do you use some A-wings to even the odds?  What upgrades do you give those?  I think Wedge is the best pilot in the game. No question. If I was going into a 1 on 1 fight, I want wedge. In a 100 pt game it is about team work.  Even with A-wings I don't see a three rebel ship list getting by a tie swarm of 7 or 8. Especially if it has named pilots.  Is the end all be all of the tie swarm multiple assault missiles?  



#16 Picasso

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:00 AM

Also, wedge with all of those upgrades comes to 44 pts. You can get two x-wings for that.



#17 hothie

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:09 PM

My original point was Wedge as a counter to Stealth Device.

I played a game today against some Awings with Stealth and a Wedge. He didn't use Wedge to counter my Dark Curse with Stealth, so I can't provide any empirical data about that interaction. But his Awings were sick.  I was rolling 2 attack dice vs 6 defense dice a couple of times. Didn't hit at all either of those times. Stealth is a very, very powerful card, as it took a lot of shots before i finally got rid of the Stealth ability. Fortunately the Awings aren't that good offensively, so I was able to last long enough to take them out, but it got me to thinking.

The game we played, at the 75 minute mark, I was ahead because I killed his Wedge and he killed my Turr Phennir. We played the game out to completion, and 3+ hours after starting we finally finished, 100 pt game. TIEs vs Awings was very even, meaning not much got killed at all, much like an Imp vs Imp battle. If you load up Awings with Stealth and  Missiles, and those missiles are effective (2 big ifs, I know), the Rebel player may just be able to last until time gets called, only needing to kill 1 or 2 ships to win the game. He never killed anything else other than my Turr, and even that was his 2 dice vs my 4 actually hitting me to finish him off.

Note to self, need to build a squad that can take out Awings with Stealth in 75 mins…



#18 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 03:52 PM

hothie said:

Note to self, need to build a squad that can take out Awings with Stealth in 75 mins…

Focused Concussion Missiles? Wedge with Expose? Han + Gunner + Marksmanship?



#19 hothie

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 04:04 PM

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" squad:

Wedge
- R2F2
-Stealth Device
-Push the Limit

Tycho
-Push the Limit
-Stealth Device
-Homing Missiles

Prototype Pilot
-Stealth Device
-Homing Missiles

 

For enemy ships with Stealth Device, hopefully each of my 3 pilots can take away stealth, but it's not going to be easy.
 



#20 ziggy2000

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 05:50 PM

Yeah, I think my mistake was running Wedge with Engine Upgrade rather than stealth. But it was fun punting him around a bit with boost and then using the R2 to mitigate the PTL stress. I ran Green Squadron for the higher pilot skill, but as you point out probably would be better to run the cheaper Proto to get the second homing missile, since I didn't take advantage of the elite upgrade. I probably should have used Expose instead of the horrible Proton torp filler. Probably should have conceded long before, but it was interesting, if a little bit tedious, to play it out. It finally drove me to Asteroid Suicide…

 

 






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