Jump to content



Photo

Templates don't match up perfectly.


  • Please log in to reply
33 replies to this topic

#1 Denied

Denied

    Member

  • Members
  • 332 posts

Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:32 AM

I recently got contacted by my friend Adam Potts who does the Applied Perspective Platic X-wing templates and he asked me if my plastic templates differed from the cardboard ones at all since he has gotten a few messages from people saying they are about 1-2mm off here and there. I looked and noticed that a few were off like he said, which is very possibly due to the cutting process. This got me thinking though about the cardboard ones and how accurate those all were. I have two cores and a friend of mine also does so we compared our cardboard ones and noticed the same 1-2mm differences. I guess we have to accept it, but I thought it was an interesting thing to note. I was interested in how the community feels about this. Is 1mm enough to raise concern? This game is fastly becoming a competitive tournament thing and I worry about the level of competitive gamer and how they will react to this 1-2mm difference between peoples templates. Can we expect people to start arguing about whos templates do you use? Additionally I wonder how warping of the cardboard ones over time will effect game play. How do people feel about this subject?



#2 CaptainRook

CaptainRook

    Member

  • Members
  • 304 posts

Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:41 AM

Denied said:

I recently got contacted by my friend Adam Potts who does the Applied Perspective Platic X-wing templates and he asked me if my plastic templates differed from the cardboard ones at all since he has gotten a few messages from people saying they are about 1-2mm off here and there. I looked and noticed that a few were off like he said, which is very possibly due to the cutting process. This got me thinking though about the cardboard ones and how accurate those all were. I have two cores and a friend of mine also does so we compared our cardboard ones and noticed the same 1-2mm differences. I guess we have to accept it, but I thought it was an interesting thing to note. I was interested in how the community feels about this. Is 1mm enough to raise concern? This game is fastly becoming a competitive tournament thing and I worry about the level of competitive gamer and how they will react to this 1-2mm difference between peoples templates. Can we expect people to start arguing about whos templates do you use? Additionally I wonder how warping of the cardboard ones over time will effect game play. How do people feel about this subject?

3d Party templates are not Tournament Legal.  So it basically comes down to your opponent agreeing whether or not you can use them.  As per courtesy, if they don't, you really shouldn't argue past that, or offer that your opponent be allowed to use them as well.


RookActual @ http://www.afewmaneuvers.com
-Rogue 9: rookactual@afewmaneuvers.com.

#3 Denied

Denied

    Member

  • Members
  • 332 posts

Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:10 AM

Captain I am not mentioning the 3rd party I mean the standard templates dont match either. From core set to core set their are small variations. Also no one calls people on the plastic ones but that argument is a side note.



#4 dvang

dvang

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,242 posts

Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:32 AM

For friendly play, neither is really a big difference. Play with whatever template as long as the template isn't grossly different.

For tournaments, certainly, the plastic ones are technically illegal.  Personally, as long as a player's plastic templates are confirmed against ones from the Core Set/legal templates by a TO, I wouldn't mind.

A slight difference between Core set templates is a more difficult proposition. I think it comes down to this:

It is technically legal for a player to use their (unaltered) core set templates, regardless if one core set template is larger or smaller than someone else's template.  There are advantages and disadvantages to having larger or smaller templates.  Esepcially considering the small differences, I don't think it matters much.



#5 CaptainRook

CaptainRook

    Member

  • Members
  • 304 posts

Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:40 AM

Denied said:

Captain I am not mentioning the 3rd party I mean the standard templates dont match either. From core set to core set their are small variations. Also no one calls people on the plastic ones but that argument is a side note.

It was a lengthy proclamation on my part to arrive at the conclusion that if you and your opponent have a variance in your templates that you're aware of to just agree to share one set or the other.  When 'weighted dice' were an issue years ago during Battletech events, they ruled that you had to be willing to let your opponent use your dice.  It seemed to work.


RookActual @ http://www.afewmaneuvers.com
-Rogue 9: rookactual@afewmaneuvers.com.

#6 Denied

Denied

    Member

  • Members
  • 332 posts

Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:22 AM

Again what I am trying to say, the templates IN THE GAME'S CORE SET. All cardboard okay! When you compare to another CORE GAME SET (Cardboard) do NOT align prefectly. They are off by 1-2mm. This was what I wanted to discuss. As a competitve game this will result in arguments is my stand point. I play 40K I have seen the ugly side of rules disputes in games like it. This coupled with the the fact that over time the cardboard itself will warp and change ever so slightly simply due to the nature of the material it is made from (same thing will happen with other materials just usually takes longer then paper based items)

I was interested in how this will effect the future of the game. To me I can forsee issues arrising and I am concerned. Personally when I play games where I have things like unfair dice (40K custom dice) I always say to people feel free to use my dice. That being said I have actually had people get to the point where they got upset at how lucky my dice were during certain rolls they started using them (only to have them still roll poorly in their hands).

 

I think I am most worried about playing against someone beating them and having them getting upset because my templates don't match theres and there were a couple of times I skirted an aestroid/ other ship and that wouldn't happen if we both had fair templates. (No joke I almost had this happen already)

 

 

 

 

Sorry this apparently is getting turne in to a 3rd party template discussion which is NOT what I am saying I just used it to explain why I even bothered investigating this topic.

 

(just saw your response captain and I agree)



#7 CaptainRook

CaptainRook

    Member

  • Members
  • 304 posts

Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:36 AM

I always establish another rule:  I play the game for fun.  I can be competitive, but if I'm getting into an argument over 1mm, then I'm just not going to play.  So I hope this isn't something that becomes an issue, as well as many other things.  I quit 40K a year ago because it was getting ludicrously competitive.  I stoped understanding why people invested in miniatures that require assembly and paint, with a rich narrative history, when all they cared about was whether or not a bunch of numbers were better than another bunch of numbers.  They don't even try to make scenarios with plots or any driving factor to just play out a cool battle, which was always the point to me.   Sorry that this turned into a comment on the very nature of these sort of games, but it was the story that brought me to the table in the first place, and when it becomes Math Hammer or eXcel Wing, I just don't much care any more.  Do I enjoy drawing up competitive lists?  Sure.  I just hope this game doesn't become as exclusively competitive as it seems Warhammers 40K and Fantasy have.  

Example:  I have one friend that absolutely loves the Tau, and never liked Space Wolves.  He could never make the Tau very competitive, so he has quit playing them and began playing Space Wolves, despite hating their fluff, their play style and their appearance, all just to be able to be competitive.  

So, on the larger side of what you seem to be trying to approach, I really hope I never have an argument over 1mm because I want to watch the battles unfold before my eyes and I really enjoy visualizing what's going on in this game.


RookActual @ http://www.afewmaneuvers.com
-Rogue 9: rookactual@afewmaneuvers.com.

#8 Traden Myr

Traden Myr

    Member

  • Members
  • 25 posts

Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:10 AM

I am guessing that these minor differences are going to happen with the materials and processes involved, even in the official product.

I have just received my set of templates from AP, and I noticed that the range ruler and the banks were about 1mm shorter than 2 of my sets. I haven't checked my third set of templates. For casual play, and in light of the margin of error rules, the size doesn't bother me.

Tournament play with unequal templates may get hairy with the real sticklers. My guess is that most players won't mind or ever notice. The range ruler is the bigger concern, however, as 1mm may rarely be the difference between a range 3 shot or nothing. I wonder if this happened in my last game at the Kessel Run, even. My opponent was convinced he was in range 3 of my ship and I felt that it was out of range. We decided with a roll off since he had other targets that were explicitly in range and LOS.

I guess the ruling should be that when maneuvering or measuring range, either players template may be used, as determined by the acting player.



#9 Denied

Denied

    Member

  • Members
  • 332 posts

Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:19 AM

I agree, but at the same time I enjoy the competitive nature of games. I like facing off against other difficult/ skilled opponents and having hard fought games win or lose. I enjoy competitive Warhammer 40k I still play it, but every now and than I run up against that one opponent who just makes me want to pull my hair out with their anal retentive behavior. For instance I played at adepticon this past year and did fairly well in the singles (made it to the sunday event) but my third round opponent on the friday event made me want to scream he was getting very anal retentive with things and I understand wanting to play a game right, but there are certain things where I just don't care. Then to make things worse the game was heavily in my favor the majority of the time and my dice rolls were hot ( I was using the custom special adepticon dice I bought for their event) and he was making off handed remarks about how I was never missing  and my dice were statistically above average and I eventually said to him yo you can use my dice if you want. So he does and ends up rolling even worse then he was to start with. I just don't get people who get like this, so i am afraid of that kind of player. At the same time I know they exist and will come to this game with how quickly thr fan base is growing.



#10 Denied

Denied

    Member

  • Members
  • 332 posts

Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:21 AM

Traden Myr said:

I am guessing that these minor differences are going to happen with the materials and processes involved, even in the official product.

I have just received my set of templates from AP, and I noticed that the range ruler and the banks were about 1mm shorter than 2 of my sets. I haven't checked my third set of templates. For casual play, and in light of the margin of error rules, the size doesn't bother me.

Tournament play with unequal templates may get hairy with the real sticklers. My guess is that most players won't mind or ever notice. The range ruler is the bigger concern, however, as 1mm may rarely be the difference between a range 3 shot or nothing. I wonder if this happened in my last game at the Kessel Run, even. My opponent was convinced he was in range 3 of my ship and I felt that it was out of range. We decided with a roll off since he had other targets that were explicitly in range and LOS.

I guess the ruling should be that when maneuvering or measuring range, either players template may be used, as determined by the acting player.

 

See this is the exact same type of scenario I am concerned with.



#11 Shooter McGavin

Shooter McGavin

    Member

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:21 AM

Overly anal people should stay away from this game.  It's really tough to be super accurate.  If people are really worried about 1 mm here and there, then they should play something else. 



#12 Carist

Carist

    Member

  • Members
  • 131 posts

Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:35 AM

When I have a squadron flying in formation, they are always just a little off after them all going straight, sometimes ships slide slightly when you put the range ruler up to it, sometimes the ranger ruler gets moved when you move your ship. There is also a slight gap when you place the range ruler in the ship's guides. With that gap, you can move the ship slightly to the left or right each maneuver if you wanted to. How about maneuvering when there are other ships in the way?  You either have to lift up the ships, or put the range ruler over them and approximate where the ship will end up. Either way, it will not be exact.

 

I don't think a 1 or 2mm difference will matter much. Human error will always be more than that.  

 

 

 

 

 



#13 dvang

dvang

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,242 posts

Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:53 AM

You are talking about templates from the Core Set. Any template that comes from the core set, and has not been modified, is legal.  The active player is legally allowed to use theirs per the tournament rules.  Who is to say if the slightly longer or shorter template is the 'correct' one?  No one, and both are legal. Honestly, having a slightly longer maneuver template can be both a boon and a curse. It doesn't actually affect the other player one way or the other, so it doesn't matter.

Really, the only issue I see comes down to any differences between range rulers.  Just get a TO to declare that either it must be at the same range of both rulers to apply, or say that if it is at a certain range for with one ruler, then it is at the same range for the other.  The simpler method is the first, essentially using the 'shorter' one.



#14 AzulGato

AzulGato

    Member

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:55 AM

Not to hijack, but this discussion made me wonder about a parallel question.  I haven't played much X-Wing outside of friendly games - is it often an issue in tournament play when a ship gets put down a little imprecisely or bumped and put back where is best as best the player can remember or any of those other imprecisions that are impossible to avoid?  Like Shooter said, there's no way around it, and one of the interesting aspects of the game is the contrast between making Range 3 by the width of a hair between two ships that could certainly be a full half inch from where they're sitting.

Pulling back to topic, it seems to me that if those accidental bumps and imprecisions aren't a problem then very small inconsistencies in template size wouldn't be, either. 



#15 Denied

Denied

    Member

  • Members
  • 332 posts

Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:29 AM

Agreed that the move templates being slightly off isn't a huge issue I think the biggest concern has already been pointed out and I am sure that several people have had this argument at times where if the range rulers are slightly off as well then there will be the I am out/ I am in by a hair arguments occuring. Now myself not being a D-bag usually if it is contested ask my opponent what they think and go by that, it is often easier this way / but there is now precedence for their to be two "right" parties in range disbutes and how this could affect TOing can be a concern. In other miniatures games the easy way to solve these issues is to have players roll off and the winner is the way it goes.



#16 Parakitor

Parakitor

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,026 posts

Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:01 PM

AzulGato said:

Not to hijack, but this discussion made me wonder about a parallel question.  I haven't played much X-Wing outside of friendly games - is it often an issue in tournament play when a ship gets put down a little imprecisely or bumped and put back where is best as best the player can remember or any of those other imprecisions that are impossible to avoid?  Like Shooter said, there's no way around it, and one of the interesting aspects of the game is the contrast between making Range 3 by the width of a hair between two ships that could certainly be a full half inch from where they're sitting.

Pulling back to topic, it seems to me that if those accidental bumps and imprecisions aren't a problem then very small inconsistencies in template size wouldn't be, either. 

Yeah, it can be a concern, but you just have to be flexible. The most frustrating is when you set up your TIEs in formation, and after 3 turns of going straight, your TIEs crash into eachother. In the past when formation-flying opponents have realized that their ships were closing in on eachother, I have said, "I understand that you are formation flying, so go ahead and adjust them so they're parallel again." It makes it more challenging for me, but it makes the game more bearable when you're trying to do tight maneuvers and human imperfection gets in the way.

Also, when there have been disputes I have agreed to roll off on it on numerous occasions, as per page 13 of the rules.


"That starship won't fly, Bastila."


#17 WarlockFiretopMountain

WarlockFiretopMountain

    Member

  • Members
  • 13 posts

Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:53 AM

I can see powergamers bringing two copies of every template, one short, one long!

Seriously though, I nudge my minis so often, they are always making 1-2mm shuffles during turns. This was the case for every player I played during my last Kessel Run.

I consider this kind of fumbling to be 'turbulence', and an unavoidable feature of any game played with physical components and the human body.



#18 Shooter McGavin

Shooter McGavin

    Member

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:24 AM

Yeah.  I'm shaky and always fumbling my ships around too.  I do my best to be careful but in a game like this there's always going to be some human error.  Just like if the pilots were flying in real life.  Turbulence is a good way to think about it.  



#19 Shooter McGavin

Shooter McGavin

    Member

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:25 AM

Yeah.  I'm shaky and always fumbling my ships around too.  I do my best to be careful but in a game like this there's always going to be some human error.  Just like if the pilots were flying in real life.  Turbulence is a good way to think about it.  



#20 dbmeboy

dbmeboy

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,410 posts

Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:41 AM

Turbulence would be a good way to think about it… Except there's not really any turbulence in space ;-)




© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS