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Inside Job vs Data Raven


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#1 signoftheserpent

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:11 AM

Does the runner still have to choose the tag or end the run even if he's played INside Job? I would say yes as the text on the latter still refers to encountering ice.



#2 Toqtamish

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 08:19 AM

No.

 

“Bypass”
When an effect allows the Runner to “bypass” a piece of ice,
he immediately passes that ice and continues the run. Any
subroutines on the ice bypassed are not broken. Bypassing
prevents any unresolved conditional abilities that met their
trigger condition when the ice was encountered from resolving.



#3 Damocles346

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 10:38 AM


If you look at section 2.4 of the timing chart in the FAQ you see that "passes" is a rules term. Anything that lets the runner pass the ice is basically letting him treat it as if unrezzed.



#4 radiskull

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 11:40 AM


Damocles346 said:


If you look at section 2.4 of the timing chart in the FAQ you see that "passes" is a rules term. Anything that lets the runner pass the ice is basically letting him treat it as if unrezzed.



Not entirely - the runner is still considered to have encountered the ice.  It matters for things like Chum.



#5 signoftheserpent

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:08 AM

Then data raven's text must trigger the part that says 'when encountered…' thereby shutting down inside job.



#6 Toqtamish

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:35 AM

signoftheserpent said:

Then data raven's text must trigger the part that says 'when encountered…' thereby shutting down inside job.

no it does not shutdown inside job. As I posted earlier bypassing prevents conditional abilities triggered by encountering the ice from going off. 



#7 radiskull

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:53 AM

And, if you read Inside Job as a "when encountered, bypass this ice" effect, since it's the Runner's turn, the Runner's "when encountered" effects will happen before the Corp's "when encountered" effects.



#8 Talamare

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 11:29 AM

radiskull said:

And, if you read Inside Job as a "when encountered, bypass this ice" effect, since it's the Runner's turn, the Runner's "when encountered" effects will happen before the Corp's "when encountered" effects.

Slight mod to what you are saying, It works that both effects trigger at the exact same time, and the person with the active turn (in this case the runner) decides which effect is applied first



#9 radiskull

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 02:30 PM

Talamare said:

radiskull said:

 

And, if you read Inside Job as a "when encountered, bypass this ice" effect, since it's the Runner's turn, the Runner's "when encountered" effects will happen before the Corp's "when encountered" effects.

 

 

Slight mod to what you are saying, It works that both effects trigger at the exact same time, and the person with the active turn (in this case the runner) decides which effect is applied first

This is not correct - the rulebook, p.22, says:

"When one or more abilities have the same timing trigger or can be triggered at the same time, each player chooses the order his own abilities trigger.

 

If players ever want to perform simultaneous effects at the same time, the player whose turn it is resolves all of his effects first."
 
So the Runner can choose the order that his own effects trigger, if he has more than one, but under no circumstances can the Runner choose to have the Corp's effects trigger before his, if it is currently the Runner's turn.


#10 Bierfuizl

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:18 AM

Which just goes to show that run timing currently is a big mess.

If you really wanted to differentiate between constant, conditional and paid abilities/effects you'd have to put it on the cards (e.g. as little icons).

I'm a long time NR player and even after many A:NR games I still have to consult the FAQ when it comes to Chum/Femme/Data Sucker/Ice Carver/Tollbooth/Inside Job/… interaction.

 



#11 Toqtamish

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:45 AM

I disagree, everything is very clear. We have not had any trouble with runs here in our playgroup. Course we are all experienced card game players who have played many different games so that might help.



#12 radiskull

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:35 AM

I agree.  It's not simple, but it's clear.



#13 signoftheserpent

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:56 PM

Actually its the other way around. It is simple it's just not clear.

'Bypass' is not properly defined in the rulebook, only the FAQ.

FFG has always had problems writing out its rules.



#14 Toqtamish

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:07 AM

signoftheserpent said:

Actually its the other way around. It is simple it's just not clear.

'Bypass' is not properly defined in the rulebook, only the FAQ.

FFG has always had problems writing out its rules.

 

Which is why it got added to the FAQ as quickly as it did.



#15 Keggy

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:20 AM

When you bypass Data Raven with Inside Job (or any other bypass effect) no "when encountered" effects happen because the ICE was never encountered.



#16 radiskull

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 07:51 AM

Keggy said:

When you bypass Data Raven with Inside Job (or any other bypass effect) no "when encountered" effects happen because the ICE was never encountered.

Wrong.  Inside Job specifically states "bypass the first piece of ice encountered.."  As a practical matter, the effect is the same, since the Runner's bypass effect will happen before any Corp "when encountered" effect, but it could make a difference whether the ice was encountered or not (perhaps a 1-strength ice with Parasite on it with Ice Carver in play…in that case, playing Inside Job is pointless, but you get the idea).






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