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Tournament Pack Feedback after Kessel Run weekend


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#1 saiharris

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:24 PM

Hey guys, played two events in the UK and had a blast! I didnt win anything but came away satisfied that it was a worthy investment in time.

Anywho, feedback.

The Good-

Im a regular WFB tournament regular so it was extremely pleasing to play a game that didnt have nearly as many rules queries and if there ever was one, the rules book was exceptional at answering any meandering questions.

The gaming side of it was great as expected. Game time per round seems to run well in the pack too.

The Bad-

The scoring system is wrong. On Saturday, 3rd up to 8th were all on ten points. In a 16 man event this isnt good enough to have everyone on the exact same. The wide concensus was It should be as follows

5-0 (as per rules pack)

3-1 - The modified loss is a really big deal. As well as splitting up the points furth up the league, it also gives the losing player something to play for. On Sundays event, the organiser ran this system instead and it felt right and to prove it, the scores were the mixed in the end

2-2 - a draw is so utterly uncommon. A modified win is still a mighty point more than this. Its very hard to play for a draw unless both players literally dont engage.

The Ugly-

The weekend was filled with very random gaming "boards". What I learnt was cloth is a terrible idea. The ships will move and its not really teh players fault. Next bad was super shiney surfaces (like posters). The dice dont roll correctly and you end up being super careful not to nudge the models about. Next in line was painted boards. They actually worked pretty well. No problem with them. But the standout choice is a painted board with a gritted surface. I doubt you can get better.

 

Anyway. Just my 2c and im hoping the scoring system can be re-looked at.

Post your experiences below too.

Cheers guys.



#2 Torresse

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:17 AM

Dice dont roll correctly? What do you mean by this, I havent had trouble with this. Ive found felt is the best material to play on as the friction on the board keeps the models more on the surface



#3 voidstate

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 01:23 AM

saiharris said:

3-1 - The modified loss is a really big deal. As well as splitting up the points furth up the league, it also gives the losing player something to play for. On Sundays event, the organiser ran this system instead and it felt right and to prove it, the scores were the mixed in the end

2-2 - a draw is so utterly uncommon. A modified win is still a mighty point more than this. Its very hard to play for a draw unless both players literally dont engage.

I think this is a great idea. You shoud email it to FFG as it would clearly make tournaments smoother.

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#4 saiharris

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 01:46 AM

I'd like to email them (FF). Where do I get them direct?

 

Regarding dice not rolling right, dice slide rather than roll on shiney surfaces. You can fix your dice almost on those conditions.



#5 Eruletho

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:20 AM

Neither of the tourneys I played in this weekend had a problem with the scoring system (13 players and 17 players, each in 4 rounds), but I agree with the  above scoring changes. They would make it a bit more clear cut as to who is in the middle ranges, as well as give those who managed to keep a full win from their opponents from getting nothing.



#6 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:26 AM

saiharris said:

Anyway. Just my 2c and im hoping the scoring system can be re-looked at.

I hope so, too, but for a different reason.

I've mentioned this in another thread, but on Friday night I was one of only two undefeated players--and I came in fourth. I had three modified wins, probably because I had three Imperial mirror matches in a row.

Considered outside context for a moment, the current structure makes sense: a win should be worth more than a modified win. If all wins were identical, there would be no incentive to attempt to end a game quickly; a smart player who gained an early advantage would be encouraged to shift entirely to defense in hopes of simply dragging out the match to time. But as it stands now, the point system amounts to a subtle disadvantage for Imperial players, since typically low Imperial attack combined with typically high Imperial agility will almost always lead to long mirror matches.

And my experience wasn't even the worst-case scenario (although it felt pretty bad when I watched a less experienced player with a worse win/loss record take home the ship I had my eye on). But if Player A with 10 points is paired with Player B with 6 points, it's possible for Player B to win the match and still be behind Player A in the overall standings: with a modified win, under the current system Player B has 9 points and Player A has 10. And I think strength of schedule is weakened for both players by participating in the match.

Players shouldn't be able to fall into those holes. I imagine two ways to fix this:

  • Increase the award for a modified win to 4. This eliminates the "hole" only for 3- and 4-round matches, so the best practice would be to require that after 4 rounds, the TO cuts to a smaller championship bracket.
  • Track match points as it's currently done, but pair players on their number of wins, using match points as a tiebreaker. This eliminates the problem for any number of players, but requires effectively tracking two "scores" for each player.


#7 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:29 AM

Oh, and regardless of any changes to the scoring system, another issue came up: when considering strength of schedule as a tiebreaker, does a player with a bye go in at the top of his/her score group, or at the bottom? FFG's tournament documents don't seem to say, and it came up in my Saturday tournament.



#8 Highball

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:13 AM

I agree on the need for a scoring change.  We discussed it some too.

 

We came to the conclusion that a 4,3,1,0 system would work the best.  It eliminates the issue that Vorpal Sword stated of a 2 modified win player beating a 2 full win player, but still being behind on a modified win.  In this case, they would be tied.

 

The next important thing would be to record "destroyed" points and use that as a tie breaker.  In the above situation, if after that match both players have 9 victory points, the player with 2 full victories would likely win a tie breaker as he destroyed more overall points during his three games.

 

This seems the best to me.



#9 WarlockFiretopMountain

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:33 AM

saiharris said:

But the standout choice is a painted board with a gritted surface. I doubt you can get better.

 

Agreed. You'll want to sleeve your cards, though!



#10 AlKusanagi

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:16 AM

As for cloth mats, felt works just fine since it has a rough surface that tends to "grab" on to the edges of the miniatures and prevent them from moving much by accident.

Also, several times over the tournament there were jokes that people should be using golf ball markers to place down for ships when trying to measure through other ships.



#11 Denied

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:58 AM

As for gaming boards. We played at FFG where they have the good stuff and they used some nice printed star scapes (actually really pretty) but they sort of move around alot and we all agreed could have been better if they tapped them down or put something on the back to make them not slide. One of the guys in our gaming group has also found a goo cheap way to make gaming mats for this by buying some vinyl material that was black and doing some simple Jackson Pollock esque splatterings of white paint to look like stars. Here is a link the similar material he used:

http://www.fabric.co...8e-50aef4f8ab1a

 

It works really well since the back is textured so it isn't super slidy and the tob is smoth for dice rolling/ play. The only problem is when you roll it up it needs to sit rolled out to flatten properly or the edges bend up a little. (not a huge issue IMO)

 

As for the scoring I liked it the breakpoints are the important thing. Interesting you had 3 people go 10 points did you guys only do 2 rounds then break to the top spots? at the FFG event we had 21 people and did 4 rounds then broke to the top 2 who played off in a 5th game. At two of the other stores I was at we went 3 rounds then broke an 2 rounds and broke to the top matchs, but those both only had 7 people.

 

Again break points in this system are key as it is the determining factor and yes not the easiest to calculate, but I think it is a more fair system then others because if you get rocked by a tough first round match up you still can come back and your break points will place you better off because you opponent will also have al ot of wins.



#12 Shadowmancer

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:56 AM

saiharris said:

… Next bad was super shiney surfaces (like posters). The dice dont roll correctly and you end up being super careful not to nudge the models about.

 

Are dice towers permitted in tournament play? I was playing with a friend and we had the same problem. We would roll the dice and they would land  flat and just slide across the table.






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