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Designing a Beginner Game for WFRP3?


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#1 Ceodryn

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:18 AM

Hey guys,

With the release of the Star Wars Edge of the Empire Beginner Game, it makes me wish a similar box had been available for WFRP3, and I want to take the matter into my own hands.

When I originally introduced WFRP3 to my family players, it wasn't easy. They had never played RPGs before and I was  a beginner GM, coming back from a 15 years break of RPGs. Character creation took us 2h, killing the momentum, and one player got really confused with the creation rules. I was myself rather confused when one other player decided to play an Appentice Wizard, and I didnt much about designing one of those then. I ended up giving him the pre-gen from Liber Fanatica. Then, we went on playing An Eye for an Eye. A great adventure, but definititely NOT an adventure for beginner GMs nor beginner players.

Enough to say, that while our entry into WFRP3 ended up being fun by the 2nd session, the start was quite confusing. Since then, I became a much better GM, demoed a lot of games through Fantasy Grounds II, and saw many different kind of players. 

Still, I'd love to have a Beginner Box for WFRP3, and I am thinking of designing my own over the holidays (See what is in the SW EotE Beginner Box), that would include:

  • 4 to 6 character folios that take the hand of the player in how to play and advance their character (See an example of a SW EotE character folio
  • A beginner adventure that take the hand of the GM on how to run the game (See an example of a SW EotE beginner adventure)

If you read the background of the SW EotE characters, you find out that they are linked to each other. For example, the droid wants to escape the cluctch of his Hutt master, and is a friend of the Wookie gladiator who then will help him escape. The pilot is working for the Hutt but friend with the Wookie, and will provide them with a transport to get out. The technician is the one who introcuded new code into the droid, which makes the latter wants to escape etc… 

The adventure of the Beginner Box is actually the escape from the Hutt minions, and from Mos Shuuta, the Tatoine town where it all takes place. So, the adventure get the characters all together, into a situation that will build them into an adventuring team.

I'd like to gather suggestions on:

  • A short adventure plot/theme (or current adventure from WFRP1st, 2nd or 3rd) that will create the team of adventurers
  • Short ideas/background for 4 to 6 characters (See example of a SW EotE character background) that are linked together

For example:

  • Adventure plot/theme:  The adventurers must flee the town of Swatchzheim as the cirme lord minions are onto their heels. Why? Gambling debts or a con that didn't work out. The adventure starts in the inn/tavern where one of the main character hang out. Soon, minions are going to bust in… time to go!
  • Characters:
  1. A gambler, main character, who has accumulated so many debts he needs to get the hell out.
  2. A servant female, accomplice with the gambler, who will follow him.
  3. A roadwarden, who has befriended the gambler, and is helping him escape. 
  4. A thief, who works for the crime lord, but is enamoured of the servant, and thus told her about the crime lord minions coming

As you can see, I am not asking anything in depth, simply some hooks I can think about and develop.

Cheers
Ceodryn



#2 Ceodryn

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 09:40 AM

Oops, so that's where my post went…

Sorry guys, this post was meant for the wfrp3 FFG board, and I got my browser tabs mixed up. 

If a moderator coud move it, I would very much appreciate it.

Cheers

Ceodryn

 



#3 GoblynKing

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 08:37 AM

I love everything about this!



#4 Ceodryn

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 11:55 AM

Allright, now that my post is in the right board (thanks moderator!), I can expand on what I plan to do :)

Once I have some ideas for characters and an adventure that bring those PCs together (that's where I need help), I am planning to create character folios (as in SW EotE Beginner Box), using Gitzmann Character Sheet as the base. The folios will walk the players slowly into what the game mechanisms are - what the dices are, how to build a dice pool, etc - as well as helping them advance their characters. Truly, the folios will have the same feel as the SW EotE ones, simply for WFRP3 instead.

The characters I am planning to make will be simple. They won't have any talents at first (but will acquire one when they first advance), their actions will be the basic ones and one action of each category - social/support, melee, ranged - so that each character is well rounded.  I'll use only the core rules, nothing from the supplements (no severe injuries, disease or corruption). I also don't plan to get into magic for this beginner box/ adventure, at least not from the player standpoint. Party sheet will only be introduced after they advance (i.e. turn the page on their folios). 

My goal is to try again to bring Warhammer to my family group (we stopped after Eye for an Eye as they moved to another state, but they are moving back). First, I'll use SW EotE beginner box to showcase again what roleplaying is, then I plan to get them onto Warhammer but I want it to start simple.

So, any ideas on what type of characters, characters background, and a plot that bring them together? 

Thanks
Ceodryn

 



#5 Remorhaz

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:40 PM

 i know you dont want to have magic or stuff outside the core but  i just watched the hobbit and i was kind of shocked at how warhammer could easily be used to play a lord of the rings or hobbit game. ive always known warhammer was an homage to tolkien but id never had it spelled out as clearly before. i think the animosity between the elves and dwarves and the great scene that showed the dwarves pillaging bilbo's larder really hammered it home.  i would make the 4 beginner box careers dwarf troll slayer, human bright wizard, elvish hunter, and halfing thief. 

i can already hear some GMs rolling their eyes but  i want the players to have some familiar reference to draw on. i know a lot of people think the mundane careers like rat catcher, agitator etc etc. are what make warhammer great but honestly ive found mundane careers take a lot of role playing experience to pull off well. 

as for beginning adventure i start the 4 pcs in combat. i railroad road them through a commission from a local minor noble to investigate a remote outpost or  farmhouse or village and they find it under seige by a manageable group of goblins or orcs or if you want to differentiate between warhammer and lotr you can go beastmen. i want them learning the dice system right away. its possible to learn the dice through social actions like negotiating with whoever gives them a comission and knowledge checks but new players and new GMs for that matter not always certain how to pull these off so i think its best to start with combat.

if they  sucessfully fend off the beastmen they can investigate the village or outpost and they will have the opportunity to question/save survivors, track the beastman back to an ancient shrine to korne where upon they encounter another group of beastmen led by a war gor or some appropriate lieutenant. at this point i open it up. i make combat optional and if the players are clever enough to get into investigate the camp without fighting thats great and if they do and find clues that the threat is much larger. at this point i would also introduce corruption checks from being near the chaos shrine (again a reference players a familiar with because of lotr)  which will be a good entry point to disease and insanity later. 

at this point its back to the town where they got the comission to reveal  their findings and get paid poorly. 

yes its RPG paint by the numbers but thats the idea behind a beginner box.

i think your list of what to include is good but i make a small change in the terminology used to describe stances. ive always found conservative and reckless a little off in my head mainly because both have slightly negative connotations. i prefer cautious and aggressive. 

i actually railroad the party sheet. they would be brash young fools all out to make names for themselves. i keep the backgrounds simple. each would be from the respective iconic city in the empire. i would give their appearances and one simple character idiosyncracy for the player to work with ie the bright wizard is vain and is very concerned with making sure everyone notices his bright red robes, the elf is paranoid especially in cities and always thinks his way is the best especially when it comes to the dwarf. the dwarf is very mistrustful of the elf and any method of resolving conflict that doesnt involve his axe and the halfling is obsessed with food and lifts extra food from his companions if given the chance. 

i feel like warhammer in general is not accessible to new players because the long time players love the fluff so much and sort of push the stereotypical lotr fantasy elements aside in favor of the mundane careers and this idea that the right way to play warhammer is heavy investigation and social elements and combat should be so deadly the players never want to fight anything. as ive gotten older and my time to play has become less and less i just dont care about the right way to play at all. i just want to play and if that means i have to ignore that the troll slayer may be slightly overpowered and that new players are more inclined to be hooked by combat and familiar fantasy races and classes ill gladly cater to that. 



#6 Emirikol

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 03:15 AM

When I train new players, I have them review the similarities to other games they have played.

Next, I have them write the dice colors above the particular boxes (blue for characteristic, yellow for trained, white for special circumstances).

We then make a couple skill checks.  I always start with  "Lifting a log off the middle of the road..make a 2 purple athletics check."  Then we do an "Observation check to see if you notice a goblin in a tree, 2 purple."

Next we roll to see if you hit a no-defense goblin.  (1 purple)

Lastly, we apply damage to the goblin.

 

Then we get to playing and teach the rest of the game from there.

 

jh



#7 Superchunk

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:16 AM

I have noticed some distinct similarities between the Journey to Black Fire Pass adventure and the Hobbit. Both are full of dwarves, both have a journey fraught with danger, both have goblins/orcs in them, and both involve the retrieval of a mysterious artifact. If you added in a grey wizard and a halfling to Journey to black fire pass then  you'd have a pretty good clone of the movie.



#8 Ceodryn

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:05 PM

Funny you say that Remorhaz, and I mostly agree with your assessment. When my family (adult) players tried WFRP3, they choose: dwarf troll slayer, wood elf huntter, human apprentice wizard. Why? Because indeed all they knew was Tolkien and LotR. So, maybe indeed I'll get those races in my Beginner Box, plus a halfling. 

I may however decide to leave the elf aside. Even in Tolkien, elves are race, magical creatures of quite a status, and as a fan of WFRP, I have hard times with having a wood elf and dwarf in the same party. However, I may replace the wood elf with an high elf, and get the same feel as you described. I dont know yet, but I like your suggestions.

As for the magic mechanism, my reason to exclude it was because it's complex, but I may simplify it and slowly unveil it fully after a couple sessions.

Superchunk, I havent seen the movie yet, but I am fan of the book. You're right that Journey to BFP is pretty close to the book, and it is a great beginner adventure with some modifications. Maybe I'll use that. I'd love some ideas though as to why the party is put together… what are the links between characters?

Cheers

Ceodryn



#9 flyndad

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:07 PM

Hi Ceodryn!,

First let me apologize for not being as active as of late over at the online Google group. Life has picked up and nearly all of my "free time" has been used in developing the audio product we spoke of, but it looks as though the Google group has picked up several new members,… estrella! Hope you and your family are doing well.

Regarding the beginning box set that you plan to create, I would like to add my two cents if I may be so bold.

1. GREAT IDEA!!  - Regardless of what is actually produced, ANYTHING that helps new players and/or potential players "get into" the game is a good thing,… no,… GREAT thing! and with WFRP3e it is desperately needed.

2. I know you are aware that there are some, here on these boards, that have tremendous knowledge and amazing talent when applied to this 3rd edition of WFRP. I won't name names, but as an avid fan of these people AND the amazing work they have done creating fan based material for the game, I would like to take the liberty of volunteering them to aide in your task. Those over at Liber Fanatica and Gitzman's Gallery are some of the first that come to mind. A collaborative effort might alleviate some of the hard work and create a product "less broken". The Elf info at LF is jaw dropping….

I could easily see this as an entire edition/issue of the Liber Fanatica! I could see a full Reckless Dice podcast episode on it with a follow up play through episode! Maybe a few additions to the giant map?, and maybe,… maybe, maybe, maybe,.. some sort of "official" recognition of it via a small paragraph and a link to it from the FFG WFRP3e page ???  I mean after all, the goals ultimately are the SAME: make it easier for people to "discover" WFRP3e, particularly if this new set, via it's scaled down rules and campaign story line, leads directly to the Core Set ?!? 

3. Never lose sight of the "Big Picture".  … As a project manager myself, [it’s what I do] I know how easy it is to lose sight of the big picture as you are working out the details. The further you stick your head into the details the easier it is to forget the main goals of the project. So, what I have gathered from your initial post is that you want to create a "beginner boxed set" so to speak, correct? That the purpose of this set is to introduce "players" to WFRP3e. I believe that it should equally address very experienced role-play players that have never tried Warhammer, AND those potential players that have never played a role-play game before. Taking this into account there are a few subsets to the main goal, both of which must be designed to be easy enough for the "never played before" folks, yet interesting and challenging enough for the "never played Warhammer before" folks. These subsets would be,.. 1. The dice pool mechanic and  2. The Old World history, background, and atmosphere. (This is where some of the existing talent could really help. I found the content from http://www.cutlass.b...frp/history.php to be the best, most concise, quick intro about The Old World I have read to date.

4. Rules - Obviously you want to have a MUCH simplified rule system, and this should be fairly easy to do, with a concise but thorough explanation. I believe I read in an above post that you were considering leaving magic/magic user out of the project. I think this would be a mistake. I can not emphasize this enough. This is a FANTASY game. It MUST have a magic user of some sort. Just create an oversimplified way to use them. (maybe just drop the "channeling" variables and use 4 white and a purple to "roll for power" at the start of each round. Have only 2 or 3 simple spells and that is it. No insanity etc.) ….. 

5. Campaign ……………… IMHO the main campaign/adventure should/could have 2 or 3 VERY, VERY short prequels. (Think A Day Late length). The first introduces them to the dice pool and the very basics of combat. Don't even include movement.

(“You open your eyes and immediately feel an intense pounding headache, your face grimaces with the pain. As your blurred vision begins to focus, a large, curved, stone wall becomes visible across the dingy cell. Scanning around the room you see two other figures sitting on the cold, damp, moldy floor, seemingly in the same befuddled condition that you are in.")

[GM: give each pc a Befuddled Condition card]

("Suddenly, a horrific, putrid stench infiltrates your nostrils and you turn your head in an attempt to locate its source. Your expression turns to disbelief when you see the massive, lumbering, 8 foot Orc brandishing a large spiked club staring directly down at YOU! … What do you do???") ………..   or something like that……… This "scene" would all take place in "close" range and could introduce the following concepts: VERY BASIC combat, engage and disengage, brief condition, multiple pc's engaged with the same target, the "support" actions (only include 1 or 2 total), wounds, super simple spell casting (i.e. "something like magic dart") [Channeling could be VERY VERY simple.- beginning of round roll 4 white and 1 purple. Hammers = power points, and chaos star = extended befuddled condition for one more round and nothing more. No over channeling, under channeling, equilibrium etc,.]   …………………………………

[GM: PC's do battle with the orc and the group can do Q&A throughout the encounter, making certain that they understand all the BASIC concepts to include: Initiative, turn phases, using and recharging action cards, resolving the dice pool rolls, brief Condition Cards, calculating wounds and wound cards, etc,.]  

(" Bloodied but relieved, the adventurers lower their weapons and stand motionless, gazing down at the mangled, bloody remains of the dying Orc in front of them. Sprawled across the scum caked floor and barely able to even move, the orc makes a feeble attempt to gather up it's innards and place them back into the gapping wound from which they spill. Looking up at you with the one eye that still rests in its socket, the Orc wheezes in a large gulp of air, raises his fist and with his last breath you can barely hear it utter "the unblinking eye will rule all of you". With that the orc unclenches it's fist, revealing a large ring that it places on one of it's many shattered fingers (give handout of picture of ring) and instantly vanishes in a blink of white light before your very eyes, leaving only the club, the chain mail and a large pool of blood as any evidence it was ever even there.) ……… 

[GM: now would be a good time to introduce an over simplified version of the Rally Step concept.] Simply emphasize that the PC's get a quick breather for an assessment of their surroundings, remove a recharge token from their charging actions, and the choice to roll to get rid of their brief condition, or roll to attempt a first aid check.

[GM note: the ring will be in the "package" in the Day Late campaign.]

In this one, short, little encounter we have begun to tie in the Day Late campaign AND the Eye for an Eye campaign. There is also a "location" card (the cell), and three Item cards (the ring, the club, and the chain mail.) I would place these cards in the same spot that I just removed the Orc token from to see who ACTUALLY reaches for and grabs the items, and let the pc's discuss who gets what and how etc,. 

The second prequel introduces the concepts of fatigue and stress (the consequences of each being something VERY simple like add a black to all physical/mental checks), and a simple social encounter (info from another prisoner on how to get out/escape) and, of course, movement. It must "make" them want to move in a hurry, for whatever reason.

This being a cell room, and the immediate threat of the orc is gone, the PC's finally have a chance to notice the bars. On the other side of the bars is a large dungeon like corridor that is well lit by two torches mounted on the far wall. Beneath one of these torches sits a table with a plate of nasty looking food and a set of your proverbial iron keys on an oversized iron key ring.  A chair is lying on its back, on the floor, in front of the table. All is out of reach. Hunched and cowering on the floor near the table is what looks like a prisoner, in typical old prisoner looking burlap clothes. His wrists are hog tied with ROPE and the rope is tied to an iron ring attached to the stone wall.  (The idea here is to have the PC's use one or two social action cards to convince the prisoner to try and get the keys with his stretched out foot and kick them over to the bars. He is hesitant to do so because he is afraid he will get caught, afraid of the Orcs and has been severely traumatized. If asked, the prisoner will reveal that an Orc guard was sitting at the table, noticed the fight in the cell, hurriedly tied him to the wall, and ran off, with the assumption that he was going for more guards.)

Just as the PC's get the keys and open the door to the cell, they all hear the sound of MANY Orcs coming from down the corridor. (Do they free the prisoner? … easy to do with him only being tied with rope… or leave him. If a PC died in the cell battle he can become a new character and take on the roll of the prisoner tied to the wall.

This whole scene is designed to simply introduce movement, the different "ranges", stress, and fatigue. …With that in mind,…..

Let it be clear that the corridor opposite the direction of the Orcs looks empty and well lit. If the PC's decide to hold ground and fight it out, make sure that when they see the Orcs that they are much too far away to engage AND that the number of Orcs is FAR FAR too overwhelming. … The idea is to get the PC's to run away, but do your best to make it seem like it was their decision.

The Orcs will chase them at a constant pace. Do your best to let the Pc's see that if they utilize/take an "extra" maneuver/fatigue they can create distance between them and the Orcs. When you think they have had enough and understand movement, and or have suffered enough fatigue to at least negatively affect one of them, allow them to see/find a small door that they can slip into just in the nick of time…. Of course, the stupid Orcs all run right past the door.

[GM: When the PC's first see the number of Orcs coming down the corridor have them do a hard willpower check, if they fail they suffer one or two stress due to the direness of their situation. Right after the Orcs pass by the room they slipped into would be a great time for a simplified Rally Step. This time you can add a choice of rolling to remove stress or fatigue.]

Let this room be an empty guard room with basic weapons and clothes and basic leather armor,… maybe the wizard ( if you have one) notices his Robes hanging on the wall?!?  

  The PC's find a spiral staircase leading up on the far side of this guardroom. Climbing up the staircase ends in a trap door. Locked. If the PC's still have the key ring, A key on it will open this lock, if not they will have to beat on it to open. If they use a key and were quiet, they peek out the trap door to find an outside large patch (an acre?) of dusty ground surrounded by a 6' wooden spiked fence. Ya know,.. the proverbial "fort' looking fence. 50 yards away is the closed entrance and there are a number of Orcs fighting something on the outside of the wall. Somehow (someone else can come up with how) they discover that the orcs are fighting some of the Road wardens and the Captain from Ubersreik. The PC's can aide the Road warden assault from the inside, turning the battle with an ultimate win for the Road wardens.

[GM: This battle will involve all that has been learned thus far and can add critical wounds, extensive use of fortune and misfortune dice, multiple engagements, a single character career benefit, and THE STANCE METER. PC's now have the ability to decide weather they behave in a reckless or a conservative manner.]

Once the battle is complete the Captain of the road wardens does not have time to "talk" to your group yet, but states that he wants to, and will meet you at the lodge/tavern in Ubersreik. To ensure your safety he asks one of his road wardens to accompany and guide you back to Ubersreik. (If a PC died during the battle they can take on the roll of the Road warden Guide. After this brief conversation he and his men head straight for the trap door and down into the corridors. The Road warden guide is instructed to tell the innkeeper to give you a place to stay, food to eat, and baths until his return. Which the innkeeper gladly does, after all, payment from the road warden’s office is all but guaranteed and at full non negotiated rates!! Maybe he offers the PC's 5 silver each as well.

This is a great stopping point for the campaign and one or two VERY short "one page" adventures centered around the city of Ubersreik could be written for the PC's to go on while they wait for the captain,…  Helping to cement all they have learned.

**THE TIE IN**  - A Day Late -

The captain never shows up, but has sent a messenger to deliver a note to the PC's at the tavern. The note goes something like, … The captain is chasing a few of the Orc boss guys that managed to escape from the battle at the prison. Currently he and his men are camped on the edge of Atheal Loren. While searching the prison he found a very unusual item that he thinks has dwarven inscription on it and has sent it to Karak Azgaraz for help in understanding it. 

PC's maybe go on one more "one sheet". They receive word from the captain that he has heard from Karak Azgaraz and that they were unable to help, and, since your group were the only surviving prisoners, he has instructed that the item be sent to the Inn via a merchant wagon from the dwarf city to see if you can recognize it and give any information about it that you can.

This leads to A Day Late and a Shilling Short. --- The road warden on the coach has been the one transporting the "Item". When the coach doesn't arrive, you leave out to discover what happened.  The package is the Ring the Orc used to disappear!!! 

**THE TIE IN** - An Eye for an EYE -

The ring has unusual markings on it, looking almost like a shield or a crest. The PC's should still have the RING handout. -- The PC's are still at the inn and really don't have a clue as to what the markings on the ring are….. UNTIL…..  They happen across an advert for employment stapled to the trunk of the Old Oak in the middle of the town square.   -- This would be Herr Hendrick's flyer. BUT the flyer has a crest drawn on it that is exactly the same as the ring,……  (Make up a flyer with a different perspective of the markings on the ring --- hand it out to the PC's and see if THEY can make the connection,  If they do,.. they meet with Herr Hendrick and …………………..  must buy the Core set to finish an Eye for an Eye,………. ** Some changes ---  The Orc with the ring was really a mutant Human turned Orc and was 2nd in command under Greggor Piersson. Greggor had given the ring to the mutant and sent him to gather sacrifices, Hence the secret prison the PC's found themselves in in the first place. The ring itself belonged/belongs to Von Brunner and bears the special, little known, original crest of Grunwald Lodge. In a ceremony Greggor asked for the ring to be blessed/cursed by the Chaos gods. Tzeentch gave the ring the power to transport anyone wearing it instantly to an abandoned old barn house of the Von Bruners. Greggor took this as a sign and built the spiked wood fence, tore down the barn house, and created "prison cells" in the tunnels underneath the old barn house. The tunnels under Grunwald lodge and the corridors under the old barn house connect. Greggor has been collecting wanderers and hunters that came close to the barn area, threw them in the prison cells, and eventually used them as sacrifices,     

 

 

WHEEEEWWWW ---------------    

Let's pull back out and look at the big picture again,..

Just what have we included and just as importantly NOT included in our "Beginner Box".

Well,.. we have certainly connected the story line of the new adventure, to the "demo" adventure, and finally to the Core set.

Rules -----  What did we include, in no particular order:

  1. Simplified Action cards (New)
  2. Simplified character sheets (New)
  3. Basic combat rules and their calculation
  4. Simplified magic rules
  5. Movement and range increments
  6. Simplified Fatigue and Stress
  7. Three act system and Rally steps
  8. Simplified Critical Wounds (New)
  9. PC Career Ability Card (New)
  10. Recharging actions
  11. Simplified Condition Cards (New)
  12. Location Cards (New)
  13. Item Cards (New)
  14. Initiative rolling and tracker
  15. Simplified First aid
  16. Simplified Basic Character Creation
  17. Simplified Stance Meters
  18. Simplified Career Cards (New)
  19. The Core Mechanic
  20. Dice Pool Evaluation
  21. Simplified Weapons and Armor

Rules ---- What did we leave out? Well, quite a lot actually. In no particular order.

  1. All of chapter one "Game Mastering 101"
  2. All of chapter two "Episodes and Acts" except for modified Rally Step.
  3. Everything about Progress Trackers
  4. Everything about Party Sheets
  5. All of chapter five "Campaign Play"
  6. All of chapter six "Enemies and Adversaries" including ALL of the "Henchman" rules
  7. All creature information except what is needed for the beginner set.
  8. Everything about Insanities
  9. Everything about Miscasting except for simple consequence for chaos star when casting spell
  10. All specialty cards
  11. All Talent Cards
  12. About 2/3rds of the actual Character Sheet
  13. Most of Character Creation
  14. All of chapter four "Experience and Advancement"
  15. Levels of Injury
  16. Most of Healing and First Aid
  17. All of Fear and Terror
  18. Everything about Conditions except brief conditions
  19. Everything about Economy and Equipment.
  20. Everything about buying, selling, and trade. except for simple price listed is price paid
  21. Most all of the weapons and armor Lists. Just basic list of 3 weapons and 2 types of armor
  22. Everything about Black powder Weapons
  23. Everything about encumbrance
  24. ALL of the Fluff except for Cutlass general overview
  25. ALL of Religion, Priets, and their Blessing Rules

I think this would succeed at reaching the goal of having a simplified version for the "never before played an RPG player", while still being interesting enough for the "seasoned" player who has just never given WFRP3e a try. It gives a taste of "the Old World" and leads Directly to the Core Set.

Best of luck on this Ceodryn!!!    

 

 

 

 



#10 Emirikol

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:37 PM

You could also look and see what Paizo did with the intro adventure to the Pathfinder game.  

 

jh



#11 Remorhaz

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:48 PM

its tough call on the wizard.  i can also see not including magic to keep mechanics simple but my preference would be to include one. that being said i dont love the magic system in warhammer. i think its messy. i dont need 8 winds or that elves wont teach humans the good stuff. im ok with magic being magical and elves just being innately better at doing it.  to me the current warhammer magic is like the new star wars force when obi wans drops the midichlorian bomb  when i was perfectly fine accepting the undefined nebulous force from the originals. i dont love channelling either. i prefer the spells to stand on their own and just drain the wizard mentally and physically. 

bright wizards are the exception. i have a very clear picture in my head about what these guys do. 

what about having a heroic scenario and a non heroic scenario? you have one lotr style scenario with the iconic tolkien heroes and a more mundane scenario where more ordinary people are put into a situation where they have to be heroic. 

the more i think about this the more i think the warhammer setting is kind of a jumbly mess. On one hand its an homage to tolkien but we dont want to look like we are biting tolkien or DnD so we add a layer of german and split sauron into 4 different gods. On one hand we have  dwarven slayers, elvish wardancers and wizards and on the other we have agitators, navigators, and ratcatchers. If i were designing the game from ground up it would be two different games. a high fantasy homage to tolkien with wizards and dwarves and  low fantasy game with normal citizens in medieval germania investigating ctulu cults and dark powers they could only hope to stave off but never defeat. 

i suppose it still works but now i understand why ive wanted to run both a tolkien style campaign and a city based cult investigation with mundane career characters while flipping through my warhammer books.

 

 



#12 Ceodryn

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:28 AM

 

Hey Flyndad,

 

Thanks for your developed feedback. Let me answers to your points to clarify what I hope to do:

 

2 & 3 - My goal is to create a personal Beginner Box, not yet for the community. Really, at this point of time, all what I hope to create are the Character Folios and a short Learn as you Go adventure. If I am able to do it, I will certainly share it, but my goal is not to teach what Warhammer is to veteran RPG who doesn’t know it, but just to get my players interested in WFRP3 after we try out Star Wars.

 

So, I don’t plan to design a Beginner Box rulebook. I’ll be the GM, I know the rules well… That being said, I like your list of what would be or would not be included in such a Beginner Box rulebook. I agree however that an history of the Old World needs to be included, so maybe even in the Character Folios. Everyone knows Star Wars, everyone knows LotR, but Warhammer…. 

 

4 - Alright, many of you seems pretty set on having magic :). Maybe indeed a Bright Wizard, with a simplified system of having 1 spell he/she can launch. I could scale the system up after the 1st session to approach what the real rules are, and by the 3rd sessions, it’s all in. To be clear, I am not planning to redesign WFRP3. I like the mechanism of the game, and want, by the 2nd or 3rd session, to be playing with all the Core RAW rules. Then, after that, I’ll introduce other mechanisms from supplements.

 

5 - Exactly my thoughts, and that’s where I need ideas. I really like your little write-up, you did a good job of making it heroic, yet gritty,  and to weave in the rules in. What you wrote up is exactly what I am seeking help with, plot ideas!

 

Emirikol, good idea about using one of Pathfinder beginner adventure. I need to check whether some are offered free online, as I don't really want to buy Pathfinder beginner's box  ;)

 

Cheers
Ceodryn



#13 flyndad

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 03:39 AM

As always, leave it to me to take something simple and turn it into a major, full blown, all out production. I suppose I was dreaming.

To think that the talent I have seen from the some of the folks on this forum could be combined to create what I believe to be a MAJOR lacking component of this game got the better of me.

At the very least, maybe the body of work you create for your family could, once it is finished, be sent over to some of these folks where they could add a little to it, and then send it over to another, and another, untill we have what looks like a fairly complete, thorough, well thought out, detailed, working solution to the MASSIVE issue of "I am looking at getting into WFRP3e, what do I get first?" question.  I mean, how many times have we seen this on the forums? For every actual post I seriously wonder how many others felt the same way but decided NOT to post, or just gave up "trying to get into the game". To me,… that is a player lost, and who knows, it could have been someone in my area. It definately would have been another player in somebody's area right !?! 

 

I envision a link to a site where everything can be downloaded. All the instructions from step1. through step ?? are spelled out in detail i.e.,

  1. Go to this site and purchase x blank 6 sided dice at y size. Purchase x blank 8 sided dice etc, etc.
  2. Purchase Avery #12345 label stock.
  3. Download pdf file 787834
  4. Print pdf file 787834
  5. Create your custom dice - instructions Here:
  6. Download pdf file 12123
  7. Puchase Avery card stock- white- 50#
  8. Print pdf file 12123 "Creature Stand ups" onto Card stock
  9. Glue card stock - instructions Here:
  10. Place cut out stand ups in clear base # 5634 available for purchae here: www.baseworld.com

Etc.etc.,.. you know what I mean,… 

How cool would it be to see a post "where do I start, what do I buy?" on these forums and immediately there are a dozen posts ALL saying the SAME thing? "If you want to try out WFRP3e with your group, start here:"  

I still wish you much luck on this project, and while I don't know what I could really do, I would be more than happy to help in any way I can.

 

[General side note question for anyone reading:  What set do I have to purchase to get a couple of Ungor Standups ?? ]   



#14 Superchunk

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:51 AM

Ceodryn said:

Superchunk, I havent seen the movie yet, but I am fan of the book. You're right that Journey to BFP is pretty close to the book, and it is a great beginner adventure with some modifications. Maybe I'll use that. I'd love some ideas though as to why the party is put together… what are the links between characters?

I'm guessing you are referring to the addition of a wizard and a halfling to the adventure, as the 4 dwarf PC's included in the adventure already come with a decent backstory as to why they are undertaking the quest.

For a halfling, maybe use a halfling chef who can cook for the dwarves in an effort to understand their cuisine better? He heard that a few of them were heading to BFP and was nearby, so decided to join them. Or maybe he meets them along the road and saddles up with them then.

For a wizard, it could be a little tougher, perhaps one of the colleges is wanting some intel on BFP and once the dwarves reach the first town, the wizard approaches them to tag along. Or perhaps the wizard is already friends with the halfling and the two of them join up.

I'm thinking for my group, who I'm running through this adventure in the new year, since I have 6 PC's I'll throw in a wizard and a halfling with 4 dwarves and watch the roleplaying commence.



#15 GoblynKing

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 03:04 AM

Ceodryn said:

 

Hey Flyndad,

 

Thanks for your developed feedback. Let me answers to your points to clarify what I hope to do:

 

2 & 3 - My goal is to create a personal Beginner Box, not yet for the community. Really, at this point of time, all what I hope to create are the Character Folios and a short Learn as you Go adventure. If I am able to do it, I will certainly share it, but my goal is not to teach what Warhammer is to veteran RPG who doesn’t know it, but just to get my players interested in WFRP3 after we try out Star Wars.

 

So, I don’t plan to design a Beginner Box rulebook. I’ll be the GM, I know the rules well… That being said, I like your list of what would be or would not be included in such a Beginner Box rulebook. I agree however that an history of the Old World needs to be included, so maybe even in the Character Folios. Everyone knows Star Wars, everyone knows LotR, but Warhammer…. 

 

4 - Alright, many of you seems pretty set on having magic :). Maybe indeed a Bright Wizard, with a simplified system of having 1 spell he/she can launch. I could scale the system up after the 1st session to approach what the real rules are, and by the 3rd sessions, it’s all in. To be clear, I am not planning to redesign WFRP3. I like the mechanism of the game, and want, by the 2nd or 3rd session, to be playing with all the Core RAW rules. Then, after that, I’ll introduce other mechanisms from supplements.

 

5 - Exactly my thoughts, and that’s where I need ideas. I really like your little write-up, you did a good job of making it heroic, yet gritty,  and to weave in the rules in. What you wrote up is exactly what I am seeking help with, plot ideas!

 

Emirikol, good idea about using one of Pathfinder beginner adventure. I need to check whether some are offered free online, as I don't really want to buy Pathfinder beginner's box  ;)

 

Cheers
Ceodryn

Exactly. I don't think Fantasy Flight would take kindly to any of us sharing the core rules so openly anyway. However, I do love this idea. Since you're creating this as a personal project, you should go full bore with the presentation and components. Such as using glass beads for tokens, and coins for money/fortune points. Someone on these boards a while back created a template for a sort of hardbacked player mat that a player could slide their career, talent, and conditon cards into to hold them all in place…you could in theory do the same, but include information on the mat itself that explains the games core concepts, ala Star Wars:EotE and it's character folios.



#16 Emirikol

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 05:05 AM

Does FFG even know this forum exists?  ;)

 

jh



#17 Emirikol

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 07:45 AM

Here's a very simplified version of how I would do it (in booklet form..with rules!) (Click on the picture)  



#18 Ceodryn

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 08:38 AM

Hey guys,

Well, in the past two days, I tried my hand at creating a concept character folio for a WFRP3 Beginner Box. It is my first time using a Mac and Apple softwares for such work (teaching myself to shift platform), so it's not the slickest but let me know what you think.

I am particularly curious as to whether I should remove some items, and/or add other items that you believe a complete beginner to WFRP3 would need? Obviously, the GM still needs to do his speech about what RPG is, and how to play WFRP3. The character folio is more to have all the basic rules in front of the player eyes as they play their 1st adventure.

Just to clarify, my goal isn't to modify WFRP3 rules, but simply to trim them to teach Beginners. I am retaining Actions and recharge. Why? Because I believe it's a simple mechanism, very board game like, that appeal to new players to the genre. I am also planning to retain Talents, but will only have 1 talent per Character, and always ON. No socketing mechanism in the Beginner's Game, nor any Party Sheet mechanism.

Character Folio Design.pdf (~12mb)

Cheers
Ceodryn



#19 Emirikol

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 11:15 AM

Looks interesting.  I'd add a list of maneuvers, and some how-to's:

how to make a first aid check /heal check

etc.

 

jh



#20 fastjack

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 01:41 AM

Sounds like a great idea, we currently play 2nd ed and the thought of this sort of kit sounds ideal way for us to try 3rd ed. 

Still a bit daunted by how much we'd need to buy to play a game, but guess you don't need all the box sets?

 






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