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Do we shuffle the common item deck after purchasing food/research material?


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#1 Cutievalkyrie

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 11:12 PM

And how many ally cards can each player  have?



#2 Julia

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 01:07 AM

Cutievalkyrie said:

And how many ally cards can each player  have?

There is no limit to the number of allies you can have, and there is no reason why you should shuffle a deck after purchasing any item, unless you're referring to specific items gained thanks to a location special ability, in which case, yes, you do shuffle (and now the just released FAQ will certainly say something about it)

SIGH. How much I hate the new version of how to apply Kate's power on monster surges / the Find Gate after FAILING COMBAT vs a Night-gaunt (you fail a combat check, then your movement is oveeeeeer, how can you cast a bloody "movement phase "spell?

SOB

SIGH


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#3 Cutievalkyrie

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 01:19 AM

Thank you. And what if the items out of stock when i buy it? Do i still have an encounter location card instead?



#4 Julia

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:24 AM

Cutievalkyrie said:

Thank you. And what if the items out of stock when i buy it? Do i still have an encounter location card instead?

There are 3 copies of the Food card (2 if you don't have the Kingsport expansion) and 2 of the Research material card. I'd say you cannot use a location special ability if the requirements are not met (as for the same reason you can't go shopping unless you have some money), so if you enter the First National Grocery and you see that your party already has all the Food cards and all the Research material cards, you have to draw an encounter card.

But I'm not sure if there is any ruling at this regard


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#5 Tibs

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:23 AM

Well, you can't do the alternate ability if you literally can't do it. You can't heal 1 stamina at the hospital when you're at full stamina; you can't go shopping if you have no money; you can't be deputy if someone else has already become Deputy; it only makes sense that you can't buy a specific item if that specific item isn't available to buy. You would have to have an encounter.



#6 eiterorm

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:37 AM

Julia said:

There are 3 copies of the Food card (2 if you don't have the Kingsport expansion) and 2 of the Research material card. I'd say you cannot use a location special ability if the requirements are not met (as for the same reason you can't go shopping unless you have some money), so if you enter the First National Grocery and you see that your party already has all the Food cards and all the Research material cards, you have to draw an encounter card.

But I'm not sure if there is any ruling at this regard

Are you expecting all players to have memorized the contents of the decks? And to keep track of what's left in the deck as the game progresses?

A similar situation could arise when purchasing items in the General Store. If you're only playing with the Common Item deck from the base game, there are 10 cards with the price of $1. The FAQ states that you have to have at least $1 in order to use the special encounter at the General Store. But what if none of these cards are inside the Common Item deck at the given time? Would you then be required to have at least $2 in order to use the special encounter? And would you be required to have kept track of this?

These are very specific situations, but playing the way you describe will at least not be very inviting to new players. And I assume that even some of the more experienced players can't be bothered to keep track of the contents of the different decks throughout the game.

The wording on the First National Grocery location is:
"Instead of having an encounter here, you may spend $1 to search the Common Item deck for a 'Food' or 'Research Materials' card."

One way of interpreting this could be:
If you spend $1, you may search the Common Item deck. If you find a Food card or a Research Materials card, you may take it. If you cannot find any such card, tough luck!

If you choose to interpret it this way, you don't have to keep track of the Common Item deck, and you won't do anything wrong by searching the deck for any Food or Research Materials which are not there. You will simply lose $1 in the attempt. ;-]



#7 Julia

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:47 AM

eiterorm said:

Are you expecting all players to have memorized the contents of the decks? And to keep track of what's left in the deck as the game progresses?

::laughter:: Certainly I'm not expecting anyone to know exactly how many Food cards exist in the whole common item deck. My point was exactly Tibs'. You are not allowed to use a location specific ability unless you meet the requirements. Otherwise you can exploit this to avoid having encounters. So, in the rare case that you go there to buy Food and there is no food (and sure, you can search the deck, no probs with this), you have to draw an encounter card instead. For the same reason, you can't go to the South Church to buy a Blessing without having the trophies and so on


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#8 anonymous

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:37 AM

But, but… DH introduced tasks which cost $0 so that mean I can hang out in the general store forever without having encounters?



#9 eiterorm

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:40 AM

Julia said:

 

eiterorm said:

 

Are you expecting all players to have memorized the contents of the decks? And to keep track of what's left in the deck as the game progresses?

 

 

::laughter:: Certainly I'm not expecting anyone to know exactly how many Food cards exist in the whole common item deck. My point was exactly Tibs'. You are not allowed to use a location specific ability unless you meet the requirements. Otherwise you can exploit this to avoid having encounters. So, in the rare case that you go there to buy Food and there is no food (and sure, you can search the deck, no probs with this), you have to draw an encounter card instead. For the same reason, you can't go to the South Church to buy a Blessing without having the trophies and so on

 

 

Aha, but then you have to search through the deck only to find that you shouldn't really have done so, because there were no items to draw. =P In this situation I prefer the interpretation I suggested above. With the suggested interpretation you still have to pay $1, even if you don't find any Food or Research Materials. That way you can't exploit the First National Grocery special encounter any more than you can exploit the General Store special encounter.

And why do I see so many different users have birthday cakes below the game collection icons? Surely you can't all have birthday today (which, by coincidence, also is my birthday)? =P



#10 The Professor

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:41 AM

I have to laugh about some of the rules which attempt to legislate good play…"you must have $1…" or "you may not give away your possessions and foreclose on a Bank Loan…"  yadda yadda yadda…seriously, if you have that kind of time to hang out at the shops or get to a friend and say "please hold my things while the sherrif repossesses my house" you have far too much time on your hands. reir


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#11 eiterorm

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:48 AM

anonymous said:

 

But, but… DH introduced tasks which cost $0 so that mean I can hang out in the general store forever without having encounters?

 

 

You must have at least $1 to be able to use the special encounter at the General Store. When using the special encounter you draw the top three cards in the Common Item deck. If you can afford one or more of the items, you must buy one! So you can't choose not to buy an item if you have the money. If you can't afford any of the items, nothing happens. The items you didn't buy then go to the bottom of the deck.



#12 Julia

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:07 AM

eiterorm said:

Aha, but then you have to search through the deck only to find that you shouldn't really have done so, because there were no items to draw. =P In this situation I prefer the interpretation I suggested above. With the suggested interpretation you still have to pay $1, even if you don't find any Food or Research Materials. That way you can't exploit the First National Grocery special encounter any more than you can exploit the General Store special encounter.

Eiterorm, I do like your interpretation. The main point is that this obnoxious rule was created to stop situations like "the Servitor is in the Sky, ready to move! Oh, my Nodens! Let me choose a location to hide into! Which one? The one allowing me to simply skip the encounters phase" (clearly, you're not one of those who will exploit this).


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#13 Justin Alexander

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:08 PM

Julia said:

SIGH. How much I hate the new version of how to apply Kate's power on monster surges / the Find Gate after FAILING COMBAT vs a Night-gaunt (you fail a combat check, then your movement is oveeeeeer, how can you cast a bloody "movement phase "spell?

Because:

(a) A failed combat check doesn't end your movement;

(b) The Nightgaunt's ability doesn't say it ends movement; and

© There are actually lots of situations in which you can no longer move but your movement phase is not yet over.

I'm actually struggling to figure out how you could possibly have come to any other conclusion than what the FAQ tells you to do. It is, after all, merely reiterating what should be the well understood rules of the game.

Tibs said:

Well, you can't do the alternate ability if you literally can't do it. You can't heal 1 stamina at the hospital when you're at full stamina; you can't go shopping if you have no money; you can't be deputy if someone else has already become Deputy; it only makes sense that you can't buy a specific item if that specific item isn't available to buy. You would have to have an encounter.

What the location actually says, however, is: "Instead of having an encounter here, you may spend $1 to search the Common Item deck for a "Food" or "Research Materials" card."

Even if all the Food and Research Materials are in play you can still do that: You can still pay the $1, search the deck, and find nothing.



#14 Tibs

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 02:50 AM

Regarding your commend to Julia:

I'm struggling to figure out why you think a failed combat check doesn't end your movement. To have made a combat check in the first place requires you to be in combat, but entering combat ends your movement. Likewise, if you fail an evade check, you enter combat. So if the Nightgaunt throws you into a gate, your movement has ended.

There are some serious inconsistencies in the FAQ, so I have no problem saying that the FAQ is actually wrong in a couple areas, including the Nightgaunt/Find Gate one.

Clearly the rules are not well-understood in all cases. That is the point of a FAQ.

 

Regarding your comment to me:

No, you still can't do the ability. "Search the deck" is just worded for completeness's sake. How else would you obtain the relevant named card from the deck? You're not paying the money for the privilege to search the deck, you're paying the money to obtain the specific card. If none remain in the deck, you can't take one, so you can't do the action, so you must have an encounter.



#15 thecorinthian

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:08 AM

Can't say I agree there, Tibs. JustinAlexander is quoting the wording accurately; you can search, you just won't find nuthin'. In any case, obviously, costs are paid before effects take place; and once you've paid yer dollar, you've got to finish resolving the ability - you only stop when you get to the bit you can't do, namely taking the card (because it ain't there).

 

Re: Nightgaunt etc: is the distinction perhaps that fighting a monster ends your movement but does not end the movement phase? Just a thought.



#16 Thomas Cartwright

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:21 AM

thecorinthian said:

Re: Nightgaunt etc: is the distinction perhaps that fighting a monster ends your movement but does not end the movement phase? Just a thought.

Well here's another test case, one that's not as improbably as the nightgaunt/find gate combo: Can you spend movement points to read a tome at the end of your movement phase, after you've defeated a monster? This actually happens sometimes: you fail to evade a monster and get stuck in the same space it was in, with leftover movement points, after the combat.



#17 Julia

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:00 AM

Thomas Cartwright said:

 

thecorinthian said:

 

Re: Nightgaunt etc: is the distinction perhaps that fighting a monster ends your movement but does not end the movement phase? Just a thought.

 

 

Well here's another test case, one that's not as improbably as the nightgaunt/find gate combo: Can you spend movement points to read a tome at the end of your movement phase, after you've defeated a monster? This actually happens sometimes: you fail to evade a monster and get stuck in the same space it was in, with leftover movement points, after the combat.

 

 

No, you may not. Core rules, pag 8 (emphasys mine):

"Once an investigator begins combat with a monster for any reason, his movement is over. Regardless of whether or not he wins the battle, the investigator loses the rest of his movement points and must remain where he is"


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#18 Julia

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:02 AM

Justin Alexander said:

Julia said:

SIGH. How much I hate the new version of how to apply Kate's power on monster surges / the Find Gate after FAILING COMBAT vs a Night-gaunt (you fail a combat check, then your movement is oveeeeeer, how can you cast a bloody "movement phase "spell?

 

Because:

(a) A failed combat check doesn't end your movement;

That's true. In fact, entering combat ends your movement. Cfr core rules, pag 8


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#19 Julia

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:04 AM

Tibs said:

Regarding your commend to Julia:

I'm struggling to figure out why you think a failed combat check doesn't end your movement. To have made a combat check in the first place requires you to be in combat, but entering combat ends your movement. Likewise, if you fail an evade check, you enter combat. So if the Nightgaunt throws you into a gate, your movement has ended.

Thanks Tibs, to answer this for me :-)


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#20 eiterorm

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:14 AM

thecorinthian said:

Re: Nightgaunt etc: is the distinction perhaps that fighting a monster ends your movement but does not end the movement phase? Just a thought.

That's probably what they were thinking about when answering that question. If you end your movement on a location with an open gate, the movement phase ends before you're drawn through the gate, because being drawn through the gate counts as a location encounter. So when you have entered the Other World, the movement phase for that turn is already over, which means you cannot cast Find Gate that turn.

However, if a Nightgaunt sends you through a gate, you're still in the movement phase when you have entered the Other World, although your movement ended when you failed the combat check against the Nightgaunt. Therefore you can immediately cast Find Gate and return to Arkham, skipping both Other World encounters instead of only one, as is normal.

I imagine this is the reasoning they used when answering the Nightgaunt question. And if you read the rules strictly, you'll probably arrive at the same conclusion. However, that doesn't mean that this is the best way to play the game. If one or more of the investigators have the Find Gate spell, it could well be an advantage to have a Nightgaunt on the board. In my opinon, monsters should be a disadvantage rather than an advantage. Besides, the Nightgaunt can be exploited even if you don't have the Find Gate spell.

One related question, though: Can you choose to fail a combat check, or do you have to roll the dice? If the former is the case, the Nightgaunt can be exploited to a rather big extent. If the latter is the case, it doesn't necessarily make much of a difference, though. Just nudge your fight down to 3 (or less) and face the Nightgaunt empty-handed, and you can never win unless there are other effects in the game.

In any case, I'll house rule that you're not allowed to cast Find Gate the same turn a Nightgaunt sends you through a gate.






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