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Weapon Line Resolution Order and "x/+"


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#1 Fenton

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:12 PM

This query is regarding clarification of weapon line resolution, specifically "x/+" (incendiary blast) weapon lines.  Apologies if this has already been asked and answered.

Since all weapon lines are "considered simultaneous," as noted on the upper right corner of page 12 of the Revised Core Rules of Play, it would seem it should not matter in what order the player decides to resolve a weapon line. 

However, in the FAQ 1.6, it clearly indicates on the top of page 7 that "the defending player removes casualties immediatley after the attacking player resolves each attack."  Presumabley one is resolving one weapon at a time by rolling the appropropriate number of dice. (and perhaps this was earlier FAQ's)

If "each attack" means the same thing as each "weapon line resolution", then the order in which one decides to resolves weapon lines is of the utmost importance if one has a squad that uses incendiary blast weapon lines (like flamethrowers) as efficacy of the "x/+" decreases after each previous successful hit.

i.e. If the "Hell Boys" (fully intact with 5 models) attacked the "Sturmpioniere" (also with all 5 models) ran their shotguns first (rolling 9 dice, three for each shotgun) and left only three models left alive after the attack, the first flamethrower would roll 3 dice (one for each miniature, "1/+") and if he had 1 hit, another german would be removed after the attack, with the final flamethrower rolling only 2 dice. 

The last flamethrower has rolled 2 dice by going last, vs. 5 dice if he had gone first.

We have been playing this way, as the rules and errata seem to dictate such.  The incendiary blast weapons are great, and I do not want to have it appear I am complaining they are not strong enough, but if what I have indicated above is correct their true "power," is not determined easily. 

I have heard people say, " play Chef with the Hell Boys and you will be rolling 20 dice just in flamers!," which of course would not be true unless one was very unlucky on early rolls against a five man squad , as each flamethrower would roll less dice as the sqaud diminshed.

Is this the correct interpretation?  Should one always roll the "guaranteed damage" lines last?  Is this how its has always been played and the errata is merely a clarification, or was this meant as a change to nerf the incendiary blast in 1.6 or an earlier FAQ?

Thanks in advance for any clarity that can be given.

 

 



#2 Loophole Master

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:23 PM

The way we play it is that we roll all flamethrowers together first, then the other weapons.



#3 SeismicShock

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:04 PM

I think you're making a leap of logic about the weapon lines. The FAQ is probably just covering the real world practice of rolling weapons with different damage profiles (normal, incendiary, laser, phaser etc) separately to avoid confusion about which weapon hit. In game world terms, the flamethrowers were firing at exactly the same time as the shotgun wielding troops



#4 Fenton

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:13 PM

I am sure the Allies would prefer this interpretation, and it might make things easier to keep track of as well.

 

Am I missing a specifucal example from the rules or something that is truly conclusive?

 

Are there any tournament players that have "official" rulings on this? 

 

I am sure this is such a common occurence in almost every game that a clear protocol has to have already been established, despite, perhaps, a lack of clarity in the rules. 

 

I do not care which way it ends up falling, but am anxious to get a decisive answer for the sake of consistency in out group.



#5 Fenton

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:22 PM

I guess my focus on each weapon line is the fact that they felt the need to add language of when to remove each each miniature to the FAQ, and the way they say "each attack," as I feel there would be little confusion that if the casualties should be removed after the attack action of each activation, if that is all they meant, but you may be absolutely right and they were simply adding clarification where none was needed. 

Maybe it was just a way to reinforce that the fact that the models need to be removed prior to close combat.



#6 SeismicShock

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:27 PM


I think reading on from one of your quotes is instructive.


[quote]When performing attacks, they are all considered simultaneous. If a player


declares a unit is firing all its weapons against the same target but destroys it with the


first weapon, the other weapons are still used in the attack. Those weapons cannot be


used again this round.[/quote]


 


Also, you declare the dice to be rolled in the "Declare Targets" step. That's when you determine how many dice to roll.



#7 Kriegschatten

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 12:52 AM

I've been playing that casualies are removed before determining the number of dice to roll for flamethrower attacks.  However, I agree that the rules seem a bit confusing in this regard.

The Revises Core Rules (pg. 14) say that "When declaring attacks with a range C weapon, resolve attacks from all other weapons first. The defending player removes casualties caused by these other weapons (if any) before resolving the hand-to-hand (range C) weapon."

Why call out that casualties need to be removed before resolving close combat if you always remove casualties after any attack?

 

Yet the FAQ says this on page 7: "When a unit attacks with a ranged weapon (any range except for Range C), the defending player removes casualties immediately after the attacking player resolves each attack."  Which seems to state pretty clearly that you do remove casualties after any weapon fires.

 

I think I'll shoot a note off to the rules folks about this.



#8 ??!

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 01:23 AM

The following examples are quoted directly from the Revised Core Rules, I only marked the most important passages. I think they point out clearly that all dice for ranged weapons are rolled and all hits counted before casualties are removed.

 

Example: A full squad of Sturmpioniere target a squad of five Hell Boys. The enemy soldiers are two spaces away from the Sturmpioniere, so they can use the StG 47 and Panzerfaust weapon lines. The target’s armor class is “ 2,” so the player references that column on the Sturmpioniere’s weapon chart. The StG 47 combat value is “1/1.” The Panzerfaust combat value is also “1/1.”

The Sturmpioniere roll four dice for the StG 47 (one for each miniature carrying that weapon); they also roll one die for the Panzerfaust. The StG 47 obtains two hits, each causing one damage: the target loses two +. The Panzerfaust obtains one hit, causing one damage: the target loses one + . The Hell Boys squad loses a total of three +, so three miniatures are removed as casualties, leaving two miniatures behind. (page 12)

 

Example: A full squad of Hell Boys attacks a full squad of Sturmpioniere, who are in an adjacent space. The Allied player declares that the Hell Boys will use Knife & Grenade on the surviving Sturmpioniere. He resolves all other weapon lines, causing three damage. The Axis player removes three miniatures from the Sturmpioniere as casualties. Now both squads simultaneously attack each other with Knife & Grenade. They roll dice for each miniature in the squad, so the Hell Boys roll five dice and the Sturmpioniere roll two dice. The Hell Boys obtain two hits while the Sturmpioniere obtain one hit . The Axis player removes both remaining miniatures from the Sturmpioniere, which is eliminated; the Allied player removes one miniature from the Hell Boys. (page 14)



#9 ??!

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 01:43 AM

I just read this example from the FAQ that specifically contradicts the examples I quoted earlier. Now I'm really curious for an official answer!

EXAMPLE: The Axis player activates a full squad of Recon Grenadiers. He moves them one square, putting them adjacent to a full squad of The Gunners. He declares that the Recon Grenadiers are attacking TheGunners with the StG 47, MG 48, and Knife & Grenade weapon lines.
The Axis player performs the StG attack by rolling four dice (one for each figure carrying a StG). He obtains one hit and three misses. The Allied player chooses to remove one figure from The Gunners squad as a casualty.
The Axis player performs the MG 48 attack by rolling four dice. He obtains two hits and two misses. The Allied player chooses to remove two figures from The Gunners squad as casualties.



#10 Major Mishap

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:26 AM

Kriegschatten said:

Yet the FAQ says this on page 7: "When a unit attacks with a ranged weapon (any range except for Range C), the defending player removes casualties immediately after the attacking player resolves each attack."  Which seems to state pretty clearly that you do remove casualties after any weapon fires.

An attack is when a unit shoots or CC another unit, not individual weapons.



#11 Poyet

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:48 PM

You set number of dices to be rolled when you declare attack with x/+ weapon line.

 

i think its most elegant solution

any way you can decide to use x/+ first ,so rest is just trying to cach oponent on fiddly rules and stupid mistake.

 



#12 Miah999

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:26 AM

I generally just resolve in the order the weapons are listed on the card, this seem fair because neither player is making the decision. Also it seem that weapons are often listed on the card in the same order. I.e. the weapon that the squad shares is first, followd by the special weapons, and then the knife and grenede is last. For vehicles usualy the primary weapon is first, then the scondary weapons are listed by fire-power, of course I'm sure there are exceptions.



#13 USD

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:45 AM

I - as dutch guy - am a little confused…..again…..

When i'm attacking whit Hans a full squat Hellboys, using the pantzerfaust werfer, 1/1,  how many dice may i roll and what's the difference whit the 1/+ from the granate werfer?

When i'm attacking whit a full squat of heavy laser grenadiers, the blackhawk, the combat values shows me 1/3. So i throw 3 dice, for each grenadier 1 dice, right? Must I throw all dice at the same time or one by one?. Than, for each hit  i may roll 3 dice and inflicy damage…right?

Hoping for your understanding and support.

 

 

 

 



#14 Fenton

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 10:23 AM

In Dust Tactics the amount of dice for each weapon (conventional weapons that is) line is indicated by the first weapon number before the slash ( "/" ) and the number of hits to register is the number following.  So, "1/1" (for say a regular rifle) means roll one die and if it hits it does one damage.) If the squad was carrying four of the weapon represented in that weapon line you would do that 4 times.)  "3/1" would of course then mean that you roll 3 dice and register one damage for each hit.

"1/3" (like say for a bazooka at a walker or your heavy laser grenadiers) would mean roll one dice, and if it hits you register 3 damage. (and repeat that for each of the weapon present in the squad)  Laser weapons are a little different that you re-roll your hits and keep rerolling the dice until you get a miss.

The "x/+" weapons, like the "1/+" you have mentioned, means you roll 1 dice for each member of the squad you are attacking.  This makes those weapons more effective against bigger squads. For example when attacking the Hammers you would roll only 3 dice (one for each miniature) but if you attacked the SSU Rifle Squad that also had a Hero and a Kommissar, you would roll 7 (again one for each miniature).



#15 USD

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 11:27 PM

In the rule book of the revised core set at page 24 there is the headline:

Phaser Blast (x thunderbolt y).

Do they mean whit that "thunderbolt" the same as whit a "/"

 

 

 

 

 



#16 Major Mishap

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 12:30 AM

Not sure why you are asking this, can't you just read the whole paragraph?

Phaser Blast (X?Y)

This combat value represents a concentrated ball of energy that explodes on impact. “X”

represents how well the unit can “aim at” the target; “Y” represents how powerful the

explosion is. To apply this type of damage, roll “X” dice and total the number

of results. This total is equal to “Y.” Now roll “Y” dice and inflict one

damage for each result. Phaser weapons ignore all cover.



#17 USD

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:30 AM

I'm asking because that's the only paragraph where they are using another symbol than the "/".

 

When both symbols have the same meaning…Fenton's explanation isn't right?

Fenton says: "1/3" (like say for a bazooka at a walker or your heavy laser grenadiers) would mean roll one dice, and if it hits you register 3 damage.

But when I hit Hans or grenadiers whit a bazooka the way Fenton is telling, then Hans or heavy laser granadiers must exit immediately.

This way the bazooka is more devasting against vehicles then against squats?

So why don't the then just say on the bazooka stads "1/skull" against vehicles whit armor class 1 till 3?

 

Phaser Blast (X?Y)

This combat value represents a concentrated ball of energy that explodes on impact. “X”

represents how well the unit can “aim at” the target; “Y” represents how powerful the

explosion is. To apply this type of damage, roll “X” dice and total the number

of results. This total is equal to “Y.” Now roll “Y” dice and inflict one

damage for each result. Phaser weapons ignore all cover.

 

So i undertand from that, i't's not just like roll 1 dice and register 3 damage, but…. roll 1 dice and when you roll a hit, you may roll 3 dice and THEN you count the hits. If you roll at the first time a black square you just didn't aim very well… and the attack whit that weapon stops.

I'm not surching for problems that arn't there, but realy realy want to understand the gamerules and play it the way it's intended. There's nobody how can explain in dutch so i must bother you with questions about things witch giving me doubts but probalby are clear for you.

My apologize when i'm annoying or not comprehensible to anyone.

 

 



#18 Loophole Master

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:54 AM

USD said:

This way the bazooka is more devasting against vehicles then against squats?

Exactly, a bazooka is an anti-tank weapon and not very effective against normal troops.

 

USD said:

So why don't the then just say on the bazooka stads "1/skull" against vehicles whit armor class 1 till 3?

Because an Armor 3 vehicle won't necessarily have 3 Health. Sure, the examples we currently have are all like that, but they can just as well introduce an Armor 3 vehicle with Health 2 or 5. For the longest time all Armor 4 vehicles had 4 Health, but then most SSU KV-47s have 5 Health.

 

USD said:

So i undertand from that, i't's not just like roll 1 dice and register 3 damage, but…. roll 1 dice and when you roll a hit, you may roll 3 dice and THEN you count the hits. If you roll at the first time a black square you just didn't aim very well… and the attack whit that weapon stops.

Yep, that's it. And remember that phasers ignore cover.

Don't be embrassed to ask questions, that's what the forum is for.



#19 USD

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:48 AM

Thank you Loophole.

Your answer is making it very clear! :-)






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