Jump to content



Photo

Into Ithilien: the first broken scenario?


  • Please log in to reply
93 replies to this topic

#1 Stenun

Stenun

    Member

  • Members
  • 265 posts

Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:35 AM

It was bound to happen eventually; with so many scenarios being produced for this game it was inevitable that sooner or later one would slip through the net and be grossly over-powered, and indeed I am beginning to suspect that Into Ithilien is not just over-powered but even broken.

Once you've placed the starting location and starting objective in play, there remains 35 cards in the deck.  Out of those 35, 16 of them are enemies and 8(!) of them have surge on the first quest card while 2 of them make you search the Encounter deck/discards for a number of enemies equal to the number of players.  So that's 26 cards that are either an enemy or make you draw again, thus giving you another chance to draw an enemy.  That's three-quarters of the deck (for the pedantic among you, it's 74.286% sonreir).

 

Now in of itself, that's not so unusual for this game.  But let's continue with our examination …

If you're on the first Scenario Card, Southron Company get +2 attack for a final attack of 5.  Meaning that the average attack of the enemies in the deck is 3.7.

So in other words, you have a 75% chance of each card draw resulting in an enemy with attack 3.7.  And that's on the first turn of the game.

 

How many Heores and Allies can stand up to an attack that high?  Not many …

 

I haven't even touched on the text of the cards, yet.

Blocking Wargs:  Surge.  When Revealed: Deal 1 damage to each character commited to the quest.  (If the current quest has the battle or siege keyword, shuffle this card back into the encounter deck.)

There are four copies of this card.  So a 1 in 9 chance that every questing character will take one wound and then you shuffle the card back into the deck and draw another one.  And what exactly are you supposed to do if you find the last two cards in the encounter are both copies of Blocking Wargs?  The game enters an infinite loop in which you keep drawing them over and over until they kill off every single questing character and then keep drawing them … game over.

 

And as for Scenario Card 3B … "Enemies do not make engagement checks and cannot be opitionally engaged."  … what??  So every enemy drawn just sits there?  Slowly building and building in number with their Archery keywords and you not able to do anything to hurt them?  Until suddenly you get to 4B which pushes up your threat by an additional two per round meaning chances are that as soon as you get there, all the enemies are going to pile on you with their average 3.7 attack.

 

And this is supposed to be a Difficulty 4 scenario????

I'm sorry but this is absurd.  There is no way this is a Difficulty 4.  The only way you can hope to beat it is with extreme luck.  Not just luck in the way the opening of the Encounter deck plays out but also in your opening hand.  You have to either kill the starting active location on the first turn or every player gets an attack 5 enemy with additional enemies at a probability of 75% for each player.

 

FFG have seriously messed up with this one.  I genuinelly believe this scenario is the first broken one in the game.



#2 Stenun

Stenun

    Member

  • Members
  • 265 posts

Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:43 AM

(also posted on Board Game Geek, here:  http://boardgamegeek...broken-scenario)



#3 Glaurung

Glaurung

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,851 posts

Posted 09 December 2012 - 05:05 AM

I dont think is broken. Hard? yes. Difficult? yes. Almost imbossible solo? yes. But that what make a game interesing. Players card was already so powerful before HON, players can win every current quest solo. So if you can win solo nin 2 player game with 2 powerful deck players win very easy. My last games was boring and only Battle in Lake- town still provide any challenge. But now  with HON we come back to real game. Now you must to build up 2 deck which should really cooperate and working together. Most of us play tnis game for 1 year already, so players need some challenge.

Today i play with my friend 2 player game agaisnt Peril in Pelargir. We play 2,5 hours and we lost! My friend very good player and mostly we win. But this time we lose.And we must to real think make a lot of hard decision and diffcult predict what ahppen next. Location and travel now is really important also.

The game in my opinion make very big step forward with HON. Now this is really cool game. So real game is just only begin.


Wizard is never late.......

 

Glaurung playtrough LOTR LCG on youtube :

http://www.youtube.com/user/olegyd   


#4 lleimmoen

lleimmoen

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,682 posts

Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:45 AM

I can only comment on Peril in Pelargir, have not had a chance with Ithilien. But I have been playing Pelargir over and over and I find it the best quest since Osgiliath, if not the best ever. I think core set did a great job with Dol Guldur for 2 player game but since there were few quests I would want to repeat many times, especially Khazad and Dwarrodelf were real downers for me. Pelargir feels very new and it is so unpredictable that I do not think it will get old soon.

On the other hand, the OP must have a point. I know how this game can get annoying. Especially when the odds are against you, you can bet something will always go wrong. I am only guessing here but it may also be that us who have been playing this game from the start are used to certain strategies that are placed upside down with HoN. I was certainly shocked in the first few games in Pelargir but it was not impossible to find a way to improve the dekcs, and some cards I had barely considered before suddenly found way into our decks.



#5 ClydeCloggie

ClydeCloggie

    Member

  • Members
  • 292 posts

Posted 09 December 2012 - 09:19 AM

I have played Into Ithilien five times now, solo with one deck. Won once, and came really close (within 3 tokens of victory) on two other occasions. So no, I don't consider this quest to be broken.

It's essential to clear Ithilien Road on turn 1, so there is probably a limited number of decks that can handle this quest. But since these options will almost all include Tactics, that's not a bad thing as Tactics has long been a distant fourth in the solo sphere rankings.

 



#6 impaulm

impaulm

    Member

  • Members
  • 83 posts

Posted 09 December 2012 - 10:04 AM

I commented over on BGG, so I'll add something different here.  This quest is hard! I think it requires us to reevaluate every card in our deck to make sure things really are balanced. Before, I was able to slap a lot of quest strength into a deck, ignoring the other two traits, and be pretty much ready to go with a decent chance. I think these quests are here to end that, harshly.

Either way, I would say the quest is more of a seven or eight personally, but might lower once I get an even better grasp on deck construction with the new battle and siege keywords in mind. 

-Paul 



#7 starhawk77

starhawk77

    Member

  • Members
  • 444 posts

Posted 09 December 2012 - 10:10 AM

It's very hard, but it's not broken. My deck that crushes most scenarios is sub-.500 vs. this quest, but I've won several times. It can be done. 



#8 Style75

Style75

    Member

  • Members
  • 196 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:25 AM

The quest seems hard now, but wait until we get all the new cards from the six adventure packs. I'd be willing to bet that we're going to get some cards that will make this quest a LOT easier by the time the AP cycle is finished. Look at the Khazad-dum cycle. By the end of it, those 3 expansion quests were quite simple with the tools you got from the AP's.

I'd be willing to bet that this is part of FFG's marketing strategy. Raise the bar really high with tricky quests then sell people the specific tools needed to overcome the challenge. It worked on me, I bought every one of the AP's so far!



#9 CaffeineAddict

CaffeineAddict

    Member

  • Members
  • 132 posts

Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:19 AM

I beat this on the first attempt, solo, and haven't gone back to it (been having way to much fun with Seige of Cair Andros). From reading your analysis, I'm thinking I may have got a lucky draw, so I think i'm going to have to go replay it a few times to see how difficult it really is…cos my first impression was that it was easier than the other two quests in Heirs.



#10 Glaurung

Glaurung

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,851 posts

Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:29 AM

Play 3 session with 2 payers against this quest. All we lost. Was very cool! Really need to tail your decks to win……. We love it. Now is really intersting play coop. Really feel power of enemies and start to scare them! this is very ok with Tolkien lore! Still need to think about our decks….

In solo game i got better results and almost win but every time lose by the threat. My starting threat is to high 31.


Wizard is never late.......

 

Glaurung playtrough LOTR LCG on youtube :

http://www.youtube.com/user/olegyd   


#11 Raven1015

Raven1015

    Member

  • Members
  • 384 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:15 AM

Definitely a tough scenario, and I like how you broke it down statistically. However, I need to play with it a bit more in order to truly say my thoughts on whether it is broken or not, most likely it is just way more difficult than advertised. The two wargs left in the deck scenario is interesting. That may indeed need some errata, as I double-checked and the surge effect triggers after the when revealed (which would shuffled it back into the deck). I do want to say that I really enjoy how many new mechanics FFG has introduced in this expansion compared to Khazad Dum (battles, sieges, more use of objectives, new kinds of treacheries, etc.). They are really trying to bring something new and it definitely helps the replay value.


Check out my LOTR LCG blog: talesfromthecards.wordpress.com

Listen to The Grey Company podcast: greycompanypodcast.wordpress.com


#12 Valyrian Steel

Valyrian Steel

    Member

  • Members
  • 72 posts

Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:29 AM

This thing is still giving me nightmares. I ran all three scenarios (co-op) three times and here is the progress:

Peril in Pelagrir - won 2 of 3 games. Only loss came on stage 1 due to getting two enemies from the active location mechanic on the first time and being unable to recover

Into Ithilien - won 0 of 3. Best game was 8 progress on stage 1.

Seige of Cair Andros - won 1 of 3. First loss was due to a turn 1 Mumak and the second due to battlegrounds getting blasted apart just before I was able to complete them.

One would think that if you are able to be competitive with Cair Andros then you should be able to take on Into Ithilien with at minimum similar success. I won't go into too many specifics since I've posted about my general deck make-up on another thread, but I've made some positive tweaks to what I posted to be more competitive in HoN without losing the ability to play against every quest. I'm not saying this quest is broken, but I think it requires a very tuned deck similar to AJtR which is kind of irksome to play with my style. 

We managed to start the last game in great shape last night with 10 progress due to an early For Gondor and had everything cleared out of the staging area except one location and had a single enemy engaged. Next turn everything goes to hell, enemies attacking from the staging area, two shadow cards in a row removing 3 progress each, and all of a sudden it's insurmountable. Oh well, I guess I'll continue having fun with the much better made Seige of Cair Andros which provides a challenge, is amazingly fun to play, and feels winable most games.  



#13 Raven1015

Raven1015

    Member

  • Members
  • 384 posts

Posted 15 December 2012 - 11:57 AM

I too am still struggling with this one, looking for my first win after several playthroughs. I haven't had this much trouble with a scenario since the first days of the Core Set. Usually, I find myself one-shotting most scenarios, so I actually appreciate this difficulty and am enjoying it immensely. Don't get me wrong, I've had my moments of rage, when I've drawn four Blocking Wargs in a row! (I'm not exaggerating) The farthers I've gotten is stage 3, only about 2 progress away from the last round, but the staging area just got swamped with too many enemies because I couldn't engage them and I didn't have enough willpower to move quickly enough. So I've been retooling the deck to be a bit more balanced. After several playthroughs, I can say that it is not broken (other than the possible infinite wargs loop), just extremely difficult. You need to tailor your deck very carefully.


Check out my LOTR LCG blog: talesfromthecards.wordpress.com

Listen to The Grey Company podcast: greycompanypodcast.wordpress.com


#14 Pharmboys2013

Pharmboys2013

    Member

  • Members
  • 732 posts

Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:26 AM

I beat this scenario on the first attempt whereas I struggle with the first and have yet to beat the siege of cair andros.  I played with one other friend, I used a deck of Elrond, Legolas, and Glorfindel whereas my friend used a Gondor themed deck of new Boromir, Prince Imrahil, and Beregond.  

I think our main sucess came from being able to quest for a lot and keeping Celador in play.  Vassel of the Windlord came out early and the pump to Gondor allies from Boromir allowed us to clear stages in 2 turns max.  Beregond was also able to absorb the big hitters from the encounter deck while I assisted with ranged attacks from Legolas and healing from Lore gondor healer ally.  


"His life is charmed, or fate spares him for some other end."

 

 

 


#15 Raven1015

Raven1015

    Member

  • Members
  • 384 posts

Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:24 PM

Finally got a victory against this scenario once I went back to using some (mostly) Dwarf decks. Dain/Loragorn/Bifur on one side and Frodo/Gimli/Thalin on the other. The Dain Dwarf strategy is super useful on this quest because you get a boost to attack and willpower, which helps with both battles and the regular quest, only the sieges are a bit hairy. I was able to beat the quest in about four turns total. Despite the amount of enemies in this quest, it was actually the treacheries and threat increases that were consistently beating me. The cards that were most key to such a quick victory were: Ranger Spikes, Gildor's Counsel, Radagast's Cunning, Test of Will. I've traditionally been a Tactics man, but Lore is quickly becoming my new favorite. Bring on Cair Andros (I played through once so far….ouch!)


Check out my LOTR LCG blog: talesfromthecards.wordpress.com

Listen to The Grey Company podcast: greycompanypodcast.wordpress.com


#16 Stenun

Stenun

    Member

  • Members
  • 265 posts

Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:44 PM

Well, having now – finally – beaten the Scenario, I’m still not happy.
I was determined to keep trying it until I beat it purely to maintain the fact that I have beaten every scenario (including both the print on demand scenarios) but this is not one I will be returning to often – if at all.
My friend and I were playing 2 player games and it was quite common to have 13 threat in the staging area during the first turn’s questing. Even with the Battle keyword on Stage 1, how many decks can you think of that can stand up to 13 threat on the first bloody turn??
On the first turn of one particular game, we had our threat raised by five, every questing character took 2 damage and we ended with 14 threat in the staging area. We didn’t even bother going on to the combat, we just stopped and started the whole game again.
In the end, the way we finally beat it came down to pure luck. We used Spirit-half-Rohan and Tactics-half-Eagles. The Spirit deck ran all the cancellation cards and cards to add tokens to sites while Tactics concentrated on high attack with the Eagles and lots of events.
And even then we lost two heroes purely because of Blocking Wargs which constantly wounds all questing characters. Having cancellation cards is all very well but you only have so many and it only takes one Blocking Warg to trigger to get it shuffled back in your deck to come up again later – 3 copies were cancelled, 3 triggered.

If that’s what it takes to beat this scenario, it doesn’t exactly sit high on the “replayability” score line.



#17 Style75

Style75

    Member

  • Members
  • 196 posts

Posted 20 December 2012 - 03:59 AM

I still think we're going to be seeing some cards come out in the AP that will make this scenario much easier. I played Journey to Rhosgobel the other day, the first time in a long time, and it was an absolute cake walk using the cards available since the release of that AP. When this AP came out I must have tried it 5 or 6 times before I got a victory. Now it's almost a joke.

I think the strategy from FFG is to keep the difficulty really high on release knowing full well they will get easier over time.



#18 Raven1015

Raven1015

    Member

  • Members
  • 384 posts

Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:00 AM

Very true, and I like it better that way. Too easy right off the bat, and we'd all get bored very quickly. I'm looking forward to there being a "surge killer" card eventually. Man do I hate surge.

 

 


Check out my LOTR LCG blog: talesfromthecards.wordpress.com

Listen to The Grey Company podcast: greycompanypodcast.wordpress.com


#19 richsabre

richsabre

    Tea Drinker of the West

  • Members
  • 4,776 posts

Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:55 AM

Raven1015 said:

Very true, and I like it better that way. Too easy right off the bat, and we'd all get bored very quickly. I'm looking forward to there being a "surge killer" card eventually. Man do I hate surge.

 

 

id not like anything too powerful…..far from it. cards that make older quests easy are doing more damage to the replayability than having them easy to begin with

rich


My Deviantart profile. Infrared Art http://richsabre.deviantart.com/

My Portfolio http://richardbyers.portfoliobox.me/

 


#20 koraldon

koraldon

    Member

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 20 December 2012 - 08:39 AM

Making quests harder in newer products hurts non-hardcore gamers like myself.

I was looking forward to heirs, but quickly cooled off after hearing how difficult the quests are, considering that I only have the core and 2 AP's. Making me buy lots of other products to have a decent chance of winning the quests sucks.
Don't like dwarves so KD is not for me, HoN is too difiicult, so basically the next product I can buy is either the SAGA or in 2014?
I hope that the saga part 2 is good, otherwise I have no more interest in releases for this game.

The nightmare packs are a much better way to cater to those who want very difficult quests.






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS