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Am I understanding Tank Riders correctly?


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#1 Kriegschatten

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:33 PM

So, I've been trying to figure out the point of tank riders.

I keep looking at the low movement rates for things like the Sturmprinz, and I ask myself "why would you hitch a ride on this thing when it moves no faster than you can walk?"  Heck, the Sturmprinz actually moves slower than some Axis units (zombies, Sturmpionere, apes).

I mean, riding around inside a vehicle, I can totally understand, since it protects your squishy infantry units from infantry meat grinders like the Devil's Own.  But riding around outside a vehicle where you can still get shot at?  Why do that?

 

Well, I was reviewing the rules again today, and realization dawned on me.  The rules state that "When a unit riding a vehicle is activated, it can use any skills or take any actions available to it." (Operation Hades, pg. 12)

 

So, if I'm understanding that correctly, if you had, say, a Laser-Jagdgrenadiere unit riding on a Sturmprinz, the Sturmprinz could move two spaces on its turn, then, when the L-Jagds are activated, they could do a sustained attack against any foes within their range.

 

If that's the case, then vehicles that allow tank riding suddenly became a whole lot more appealing to me!

 

 



#2 marcemtp

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:27 PM

Thats the way I understood it also.

Tank riders get technically free movement for the vehicle they are on so they can get a sustained attack.



#3 Loophole Master

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 01:32 AM

The only question I have is: how does Line of Sight works for a squad riding a tank? Do they have normal infantry LOS, or do they gain vehicle LOS? Meaning, can they see over other troops or tank traps, like the vehicle they're riding can?



#4 Kriegschatten

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:28 AM

Loophole Master said:

The only question I have is: how does Line of Sight works for a squad riding a tank? Do they have normal infantry LOS, or do they gain vehicle LOS? Meaning, can they see over other troops or tank traps, like the vehicle they're riding can?

 

Good question!

Which raises another question in my mind: On a vehicle that takes up multiple squares, which square is the unit considered to occupy for determining LOS?  All of them?  Or a specific one?

It also made me think of a way for squads to get a free square of movement.  It works like this:

(1) There is a two-square long vehicle directly in front of a squad with a movement speed of 1.

(2) Squad spends one MOVE action to board the vehicle from the rear.

(3) Squad spends a second MOVE action to exit the vehicle from the front.

(4) The squad now has moved three spaces when it would normally be able to only move two spaces in a turn.



#5 mgentile7

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:29 AM

I would take the added height as one of the advantages of riding such a vehicle.



#6 Lska

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:45 AM

If i remember correctly you can't get in and then disembark a vehicle in the same activation.



#7 Kriegschatten

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:03 AM

Lska said:

If i remember correctly you can't get in and then disembark a vehicle in the same activation.

 

That would make sense, but I looked in the carrying capacity rules in Cerebus and I don't see that restriction in there.



#8 Lska

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:28 AM

Well it's stated in operation Hades PDF in the rules for tank riders. That's strange BTW. So you can do that manuver with normal carry capacity but not with the tank riders?



#9 Loophole Master

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:44 PM

I got an official answer long ago stating that you cannot enter and exit a vehicle in the same turn, which seems like a good rule IMO. So just extend that official rule about Tank Riders to normal Carry Capacity.

But the issue of which square the squad is firing from is an interesting one. The tank can fire each of its weapons from a different square, so can we also assume that the squad can spread itself across the tank and have the bazooka firing from the front square and the guns firing from the back square?



#10 Lska

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:04 PM

Well i would say that is logic, especially after reports that new german troop transports only take 2 squares.



#11 Major Mishap

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:16 AM

Realistically, any tank riders would be at the rear using the turret as cover and not in the way of the tank weapons shooting, let alone getting knocked off by a rotating gun barrel.



#12 Kriegschatten

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 11:39 AM

Major Mishap said:

Realistically, any tank riders would be at the rear using the turret as cover and not in the way of the tank weapons shooting, let alone getting knocked off by a rotating gun barrel.

 

Any argument trying to apply realism to Dust Tactics tends to fall apart very quickly, unfortunately…

 

I'd say that, since tank riders can take damage no matter where the vehicle gets shot, they should be able to draw LOS from any square that the vehicle occupies.



#13 Loophole Master

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:20 PM

Kriegschatten said:

I'd say that, since tank riders can take damage no matter where the vehicle gets shot, they should be able to draw LOS from any square that the vehicle occupies.

Agreed.



#14 SeismicShock

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:30 PM

Lska said:

Well i would say that is logic, especially after reports that new german troop transports only take 2 squares.

 

Makes total sense, since it's on the exact same chassis as the Konigluther/sturmkonig



#15 Loophole Master

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:08 PM

SeismicShock said:

Lska said:

 

Well i would say that is logic, especially after reports that new german troop transports only take 2 squares.

 

 

 

Makes total sense, since it's on the exact same chassis as the Konigluther/sturmkonig

How does that make sense? The Konigluther/sturmkonig takes 4 squares.



#16 Miah999

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:15 PM

Despite the "press shots" showing otherwise, I believe FFG will rule any vehicle that does not have a base and is larger then one square will be treated like the Konigluther and Strumkionig and be made to occupy Four Squares, not two.

Even the SSU tanks do not perfectly fit in two squares they hang over a good bit.



#17 blkdymnd

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:48 PM

Miah999 said:

Despite the "press shots" showing otherwise, I believe FFG will rule any vehicle that does not have a base and is larger then one square will be treated like the Konigluther and Strumkionig and be made to occupy Four Squares, not two.

Even the SSU tanks do not perfectly fit in two squares they hang over a good bit.

they don't really hang over much at all, no way the tanks will be ruled to take up 4 squares.



#18 SeismicShock

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 12:01 AM

Loophole Master said:

SeismicShock said:

 

Lska said:

 

Well i would say that is logic, especially after reports that new german troop transports only take 2 squares.

 

 

 

Makes total sense, since it's on the exact same chassis as the Konigluther/sturmkonig

 

 

How does that make sense? The Konigluther/sturmkonig takes 4 squares.

 

Forgot the /sarcasm tag



#19 Major Mishap

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 12:47 AM

Miah999 said:

.

Even the SSU tanks do not perfectly fit in two squares they hang over a good bit.

Funny, mine fits within 2 squares perfectly :?

 

 



#20 Miah999

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:18 PM

I retract my eariler statement, now that I have one, they are much smaller then I had been led to believe, and obviously are only two squares in size.

FFG should have developed a descriptor ("Skill") that indicates how many squares a vehicle occupies. I.e. "Heavy" = 2 squares, and "Super Heavy" = 4 Squares.

Also nice picture Major.






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