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Incomplete Core Set!


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#1 mauler78

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:35 PM

Why FFG did you do this to use again.  Putting the core set with less the 3 copies of every card is just criminal.  I would have gladly paid a few extra dollars to have 3 copies of every card.  Instead you have made it so that if I want 3 copies of every core card I need 3 core sets which mean I end up with a  stack of cards I don't need.  I really wish going forward with any new LCG that you would just get it right and put the max copies of every card in each set so that I need to make 1 investment into the game.



#2 Toqtamish

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:53 PM

mauler78 said:

Why FFG did you do this to use again.  Putting the core set with less the 3 copies of every card is just criminal.  I would have gladly paid a few extra dollars to have 3 copies of every card.  Instead you have made it so that if I want 3 copies of every core card I need 3 core sets which mean I end up with a  stack of cards I don't need.  I really wish going forward with any new LCG that you would just get it right and put the max copies of every card in each set so that I need to make 1 investment into the game.

This has been brought up to death so I will just reiterate the best argument I have seen on it.

The incorrect assumption many make when complaining and saying there should be 3 cards is you assume that 3 cards with the same amount of variety of cards would cost the same or close to it. There is zero basis in reality for that claim. So instead of making it an $90 "collectionists wet dream" set they instead make it a $40 "I am willing to play that to try out the game" set. Which makes a lot more business sense. If you want extra copies of the cards buy more sets. Which really costs FFG more as then you get extra tokens, rules etc. If you were to buy the completionist set at $80 it would save FFG money on the cost of the packaging, tokens, rules etc. But again people are more likely to spend $40 than $80-$90 to try out a new game. So if you were to get your wish your playgroup would be a lot smaller due to the cost.



#3 radiskull

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:46 PM

mauler78 said:

 

Why FFG did you do this to use again.  Putting the core set with less the 3 copies of every card is just criminal.  I would have gladly paid a few extra dollars to have 3 copies of every card.  Instead you have made it so that if I want 3 copies of every core card I need 3 core sets which mean I end up with a  stack of cards I don't need.  I really wish going forward with any new LCG that you would just get it right and put the max copies of every card in each set so that I need to make 1 investment into the game.

 

 

 

You're a little late to the party and those of us who are not are super tired of this argument and the discussion it inevitably spawns.



#4 mauler78

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:42 PM

Toqtamish said:

mauler78 said:

 

Why FFG did you do this to use again.  Putting the core set with less the 3 copies of every card is just criminal.  I would have gladly paid a few extra dollars to have 3 copies of every card.  Instead you have made it so that if I want 3 copies of every core card I need 3 core sets which mean I end up with a  stack of cards I don't need.  I really wish going forward with any new LCG that you would just get it right and put the max copies of every card in each set so that I need to make 1 investment into the game.

 

 

This has been brought up to death so I will just reiterate the best argument I have seen on it.

The incorrect assumption many make when complaining and saying there should be 3 cards is you assume that 3 cards with the same amount of variety of cards would cost the same or close to it. There is zero basis in reality for that claim. So instead of making it an $90 "collectionists wet dream" set they instead make it a $40 "I am willing to play that to try out the game" set. Which makes a lot more business sense. If you want extra copies of the cards buy more sets. Which really costs FFG more as then you get extra tokens, rules etc. If you were to buy the completionist set at $80 it would save FFG money on the cost of the packaging, tokens, rules etc. But again people are more likely to spend $40 than $80-$90 to try out a new game. So if you were to get your wish your playgroup would be a lot smaller due to the cost.

 

First, I also play miniature games, so to drop $80 on a game is not an issue.

Second, to add a few extra cards to the set would hardly double the price.  And if the price of the set was $50, instead of $40 to gain the benefit of having max copies of a card i would gladly pay it.

 

I know the agruement is old, I just though FFG had learned from Invasion where this issue raised a huge stink, and they changed their model after the first cycle.  I guess could take solice if the expansions are going to follow the max card model, and I will just have to bite the bullet and get 3 core sets.



#5 Toqtamish

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:37 AM

mauler78 said:

Toqtamish said:

 

mauler78 said:

 

Why FFG did you do this to use again.  Putting the core set with less the 3 copies of every card is just criminal.  I would have gladly paid a few extra dollars to have 3 copies of every card.  Instead you have made it so that if I want 3 copies of every core card I need 3 core sets which mean I end up with a  stack of cards I don't need.  I really wish going forward with any new LCG that you would just get it right and put the max copies of every card in each set so that I need to make 1 investment into the game.

 

 

This has been brought up to death so I will just reiterate the best argument I have seen on it.

The incorrect assumption many make when complaining and saying there should be 3 cards is you assume that 3 cards with the same amount of variety of cards would cost the same or close to it. There is zero basis in reality for that claim. So instead of making it an $90 "collectionists wet dream" set they instead make it a $40 "I am willing to play that to try out the game" set. Which makes a lot more business sense. If you want extra copies of the cards buy more sets. Which really costs FFG more as then you get extra tokens, rules etc. If you were to buy the completionist set at $80 it would save FFG money on the cost of the packaging, tokens, rules etc. But again people are more likely to spend $40 than $80-$90 to try out a new game. So if you were to get your wish your playgroup would be a lot smaller due to the cost.

 

 

 

First, I also play miniature games, so to drop $80 on a game is not an issue.

Second, to add a few extra cards to the set would hardly double the price.  And if the price of the set was $50, instead of $40 to gain the benefit of having max copies of a card i would gladly pay it.

 

I know the agruement is old, I just though FFG had learned from Invasion where this issue raised a huge stink, and they changed their model after the first cycle.  I guess could take solice if the expansions are going to follow the max card model, and I will just have to bite the bullet and get 3 core sets.

This is a card game, not a miniature game. Card games have very different expectations of initial investment.

Invasion did not change the distribution of cards in the core set. ALL LCGs changed to a 3 per card copy in the expansion packs (Battle, Chapter, Asylum) at the same time Invasion did. This was not due to anything to do with Invasion and was covered in an extensive article back when the change was made 3 years ago. Every new LCG since then (except LotR which is unique with its game as the villain) uses 3 copies per expansion pack and deluxe expansion. 

Core sets are about card VARIETY not card QUANTITY to allow for a complete game out of the box. This way if someone prefers to buy and play the game more akin to a board game they can do so right out of the one box with no further investment necessary.



#6 Talamare

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:38 AM

At the very least I wish they would not have included singles of some cards

Now we need 3 cores to get triple of each card, instead of only 2 cores



#7 papy72

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:27 AM

Talamare said:

At the very least I wish they would not have included singles of some cards

Now we need 3 cores to get triple of each card, instead of only 2 cores

How many cards only have 1/3 in the starter?  I looked over the runner cards and only saw 1 per faction (the cyberdecks).  If the corp side is similar I can live with buying a second starter and going with only 2/3 of seven cards.



#8 Toqtamish

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:04 AM

papy72 said:

Talamare said:

 

At the very least I wish they would not have included singles of some cards

Now we need 3 cores to get triple of each card, instead of only 2 cores

 

 

How many cards only have 1/3 in the starter?  I looked over the runner cards and only saw 1 per faction (the cyberdecks).  If the corp side is similar I can live with buying a second starter and going with only 2/3 of seven cards.

Only 11 cards come in 1/3 per starter. And in most of those cases you would be fine with at the most two as they are for the most part unique cards anyway.



#9 radioactivemouse

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:16 PM

It's really decieving. 

 

The completionist in people want that 3x everything, not really knowing that the base box comes with what you need. I got 3 core sets and after I started moving towards making tournament-level decks, I found I never really needed more than 1 core set in the first place. But the availability of 2 more core sets just allowed me to make 2 more decks with enough cards left over to look at and develop future strategies. In the end it was win-win for me instead of "oh boo hoo, I had to buy 2 more cores so I could get 3x every card"

 

But, consider the alternative. I've played Magic since the 90's and I was never really satisfied because I was never able to even complete a set, despite the hundreds of dollars I pumped into that game. I can buy 2 boxes of boosters (at about $80-120 respectively, depending on the set) and STILL not get even 1 copy of every card. 

 

I bought my first Netrunner core at $40, the other two I found online at $25/each. That's $90; I have 3x every card PLUS extras for making more decks. 

 

I don't think this is a matter of FFG being fair as much as it is people are just whiny. 

 

Does this mean I'm not irked at the fact FFG didn't put 3x every card in the core? No, I was a little concerned, but the bottom line is the core is meant to get people in the game, not to fulfill every completionist's dream, and I can understand that. Hey, if you want to go hardcore, buy 2 more cores. I did. It's not like you're going to have to buy 3x of every data pack from now on or have to buy a full box of data packs just to try and find a card you want to put in your deck. It's (buying 2 more cores) the only real outside purchase you're going to need, IF you need it at all. 



#10 Toqtamish

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:36 AM

radioactivemouse said:

It's really decieving. 

While I agree with most of your other points this one I do not as the contents of the core set as well as what the quantities of each card are were put in a PDF file on the FFG support page for the game weeks in advance of its release.



#11 Shadin

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:16 AM

Three cores have now cost me a total of $65.  I didn't even really do it to get 3x, that's just a bonus, I really wanted more sets of neutrals to have more decks prebuilt.

People complaining about distribution can easily get 3x for a very reasonable price, just not the price of a single core, which is built for variety more than completionism.  There's no need to pay MSRP.


I know there's no grand plan here.  This is just the way it goes.


#12 radioactivemouse

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:59 AM

Toqtamish said:

radioactivemouse said:

 

It's really decieving. 

 

 

While I agree with most of your other points this one I do not as the contents of the core set as well as what the quantities of each card are were put in a PDF file on the FFG support page for the game weeks in advance of its release.

 

It's context…I meant it's decieving because not having 3x cards "seems" like it's a bum deal when it's really not. I meant it in a good way and I wasn't referring to the actual amounts of cards that are in the set. 



#13 wildfire393

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:45 AM

Toqtamish said:

 

papy72 said:

 

Talamare said:

 

At the very least I wish they would not have included singles of some cards

Now we need 3 cores to get triple of each card, instead of only 2 cores

 

 

How many cards only have 1/3 in the starter?  I looked over the runner cards and only saw 1 per faction (the cyberdecks).  If the corp side is similar I can live with buying a second starter and going with only 2/3 of seven cards.

 

 

Only 11 cards come in 1/3 per starter. And in most of those cases you would be fine with at the most two as they are for the most part unique cards anyway.

 

 

 

The big problem I see is a couple of the cards that are there as one-ofs (notably Zaiabutsu Loyalty and Corporate Troubleshooter) are
A) not unique
B) powerful effects that just about any corporation will probably want
C) very low influence cost so any corporation can run them

So you can buy 3x Core with the thought that it completes all your playsets and gives you enough cards to build multiple decks - except you're STILL limited by the fact that you have a very limited number of these cards.

A good solution in my mind would be to print a "Core Set Completion" Datapack that contains 1x of everything that's 2x in the Core, and 2x of everything htat's 1x in the Core. It seems pretty win/win to me - the Core Set retains its built-in matchups, FFG gets to release another 'Pack without spending anything additional on the development of the cards besides a small amount on printing and packaging them, and people get a chance to get at more of these "rare" cards from the Core Set.



#14 radiskull

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 06:43 AM

wildfire393 said:

 

A good solution in my mind would be to print a "Core Set Completion" Datapack that contains 1x of everything that's 2x in the Core, and 2x of everything htat's 1x in the Core. It seems pretty win/win to me - the Core Set retains its built-in matchups, FFG gets to release another 'Pack without spending anything additional on the development of the cards besides a small amount on printing and packaging them, and people get a chance to get at more of these "rare" cards from the Core Set.

 

 

That's a brilliant idea.  I'd wager you're the first one to think of it.

Snark aside, those of us who have been through this discussion many, many times can predict with some accuracy the order in which ideas and arguments will get introduced.  The suggestion that FFG produce a "completion pack" generally happens very early on in the discussion.  The next couple of responses will be a back-and-forth debating (a) the financial viability of putting out such a pack and (b) how FFG should do it, even at a loss, to make up for their "deceptive business practices".

I look forward to it.



#15 Toqtamish

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:19 AM

Let's just keep it simple. There will be no completionist pack, ever. This has been brought up hundreds of times before. It is not financially viable and FFG has made it very clear they will not be doing it.

Buy 1, 2 or 3 core sets it is up to you but don't expect any kind of a completionist pack to complete things.

And really is buying 3 core sets really that big a deal ? The answer is No. I got 3 for the low cost of only $40 as I sold a bunch of my WoW TCG rares to cover the other two. Even paying full value of $120 is still less than I spending on 3 boxes of WoW TCG boosters and not getting complete sets of many cards.



#16 Keggy

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:38 PM

The real reason FFG will never creat a completion pack for any of their LCGs?  They need the money from extra core set sales to cover the cost of hosting server after server of redundant threads asking for core set completion packs.



#17 radiskull

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 08:03 PM

Keggy said:

The real reason FFG will never creat a completion pack for any of their LCGs?  They need the money from extra core set sales to cover the cost of hosting server after server of redundant threads asking for core set completion packs.

So you're saying threads like these are the reason we don't have better forum software?

This is even worse than I thought.



#18 Toqtamish

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:13 AM

Keggy said:

The real reason FFG will never creat a completion pack for any of their LCGs?  They need the money from extra core set sales to cover the cost of hosting server after server of redundant threads asking for core set completion packs.

 

Best reason ever.



#19 papy72

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:56 AM

wildfire393 said:

A good solution in my mind would be to print a "Core Set Completion" Datapack that contains 1x of everything that's 2x in the Core, and 2x of everything htat's 1x in the Core. It seems pretty win/win to me - the Core Set retains its built-in matchups, FFG gets to release another 'Pack without spending anything additional on the development of the cards besides a small amount on printing and packaging them, and people get a chance to get at more of these "rare" cards from the Core Set.

Love this idea.



#20 vermillian

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:21 AM

Some people like the extras and extra decks that can now be built with the additional core set purchases. Since the price point of this data pack would be comperable to a core set, and since the 1x's are typically only really needed ain 1x or at most 2x's (unless you're making more than one deck)….






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