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Tactics (any) question


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#1 LaughingCorpse2

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:04 PM

ok now ive just started playing a Imperial Fist marine and looking at tactics on the IF chapter advances i was wondering does the any bit mean

a.) i can pick any one tactic, or

b.) i can pick all and buy them each individually?



#2 extreme_tactician

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:22 PM

answer A should be the correct one



#3 extreme_tactician

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:23 PM

sorry, I meant answer B, you pay them individually



#4 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:01 PM

I've always seen it as you pick a Tactic, and then pay the amount, and that's it. You don't get to buy it multiple times (unless it says x2 or has a mark and a note saying "may select up to X times at this level").

BYE


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#5 extreme_tactician

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:54 AM

H.B.M.C. said:

I've always seen it as you pick a Tactic, and then pay the amount, and that's it. You don't get to buy it multiple times (unless it says x2 or has a mark and a note saying "may select up to X times at this level").

BYE

yeah… he's totally right. I answered quickly and wrong. Apologies if I created confusion.



#6 herichimo

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 08:47 PM

Actually, it is: you may purchase all available skill groups, but you must pay the cost for each skill group.

FFG lists skill group advances which can be purchased a limited, yet multiple number of times as:
Tactics (Choose One) (X2)

Think of the (any) option as:
Tactics (Choose any)
Meaning you get to choose any of the skills you want, and you are not limited in numbers.

There is a great confusion amongst some due to: Sound Constitution X2. But it is unfounded. Sound Constitution is a talent, not a skill group. It is displayed differently. More confusion arises since there are no skill groups with the (X2) option in deathwatch, all talent group skills in space marine advances have (any).

This means, the "you get only one skill group ever group," limits a space marine to only 1 additional language, 1 piloting proficiency, 1 forbidden knowledge skill group for the librarian, etc. which doesn't make any sense. On the other hand thinking of it the right way, where you can buy any of the skill groups with that advance, the space marine librarian can study more than a single subject: the tactical marine can learn ork, eldar, and kroot: and the pilot can learn how to fly airplanes, spacecraft, and skimmers (unless skimmers is a drive skill…).



#7 Tacitus05

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:51 PM

Are you sure? That makes the Imperial Fists tactical geniuses.



#8 Brother Anselm

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 01:12 AM

Why shouldn't Imperial Fists be tactical genius's (?). They are after all perfectionists who strive to be the best at everything, just look at their Primarch's Curse. 

As an aside, the skill itself doesn't really do much, other than the 'stealth and recon' one that gives advantages in ambushes, the others are just window dressing. open to a GMs interpretation, as written they don't do anything for a character other than give a bit of background. That said, I spent a few hundred xp on becoming our kill teams new tactical officer, though i can't imagine a time when he'll make use of his Tactics (Void) skill.  


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#9 The_Grey

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 01:59 PM

Does this also mean that, once any Space Marine has reached Rank 3, they may take Tactics (Any)  [or Pilot (Any) or Perform (Any)] multiple times to learn different Tactics?



#10 herichimo

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 11:42 AM

Yes The_Grey, but the character must spend the advance's full XP cost for every talent group they take. Buying 3 tactics with Tactics (any) would cost 1200 XP (400 x 3). All pre-requisites must still be met.



#11 The_Grey

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 12:47 PM

herichimo said:

Yes The_Grey, but the character must spend the advance's full XP cost for every talent group they take. Buying 3 tactics with Tactics (any) would cost 1200 XP (400 x 3). All pre-requisites must still be met.

If that's so, why does the Ultramarines Honor Guard Advanced Specialty have Tactics (Any) and the rest (+10/20) listed among its advances, if they already have recurring access to those simply by virtue of being an Ultramarine?  Why is it on the Watch Captain's list if all Watch Captains must be at least Rank 5, and would already have access to Any (and All) Tactics they'd like to take from Rank 3 onwards for exactly the same cost?

I think all evidence points to H.B.M.C.'s read of the rules being correct.  You may take it once, and must wait for another Specialty or Rank to offer you the option to take it again, or use an Elite Advance.  You can't Master every area of tactics as a lowly Rank 1 for ~2000 XP simply by virtue of being an Imperial Fist. burla



#12 herichimo

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 06:29 PM

You're right, FFG has NEVER made any kind of mistake nor anything confusing or just downright wierd….

Ok, Sarcasm mode is now off.

If Talent (any) was the same as Talent (Choose One) wouldn't it be just as easy to put in Talent (Choose One)? Why go to all the trouble changing the way you write Talent (Choose One)? Why have Two seperate ways of writing Talent (Choose One) (Page 36 under "starting talents") in the rulebook to begin with? If, with some miracle, you can answer those 3 questions without sounding rediculous; then, and only then, will that argument have merit.

Your argument isn't convincing. "There are identical options in two different advance tables, so there should be a reason." Thats stretching pretty good there. A more simple, and much more reasonable assumption would be, "These are skills this speciality should have and they were simply duplicated by error, oversight, or simply because they wanted to."

Consider for instance, perhaps their inclusion was intentional as they are skills which should be associated with the specialty. Therefore they should be located in the specialty's advance table, even if they are also available elsewhere for the same or less cost or at a lower rank.

Never mind getting both the +10 and +20 options 2 ranks earlier at a 400 xp discount. Or for that matter, the speciality requiring Command +20 but the command, its +10 and +20 talents listed in its advance table as well.

Precedent has been proven and set, the advance tables for the Watch Captain speciality are a bit wonky, Including not only talents which are available in other tables at lower ranks, but also including talents the character MUST purchase before they even take the speciality. Therefore, using this as an example proves nothing.

 

Speaking of precedent, FFG has a well established method of telling players how many talents their characters may purchase. This method uses, gasp, English. Broken down they are:

Advance table allows only purchasing a specific talent group for a talent: Talent (Specific Group)
i.e. Tactics (Assault)
As seen in: Dark Heresy, Dark Heresy Accension, Rogue Trader, Rites of Battle, and even more

Advance table allows the purchase of a single talent group of the player's choice: Talent (Choose One)
i.e. Tactics (Choose One)
As is seen in: Dark Heresy, Accension, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch Core Rulebook, Rites of Battle, and even more

Advance table allows the purchase of a limited number of talent groups of the player's choice: Talent (Choose One) (X4)
i.e. Tactics (Choose One) (X3)
As seen in: Rogue Trader: Into the Storm, and probably others.

 

I'm going to skip the (any) option for the moment. There are two special cases I'd like to adress before getting to the crux of the argument. Before I do that though, I'm certain a little English remedial training is necessary (unfortunately). I feel it is necessary to define a few words, mainly: Choose and Any.

Choose
transitive verb
1 a: to select freely and after consideration <choose a career>
   b: to decide on especially by vote : elect <chose her as captain>
2 a: to have a preference for <choose one car over another>
   b: decide <chose to go by train>
intransitive verb
1: to make a selection choose>
2: to take an alternative —used after cannot and usually followed by but choose but be happy — J. A. Froude

Any
Adjective
1: one or some indiscriminately of whatever kind:
    a: one or another taken at random any man you meet> 
    b: every —used to indicate one selected without restriction <any child would know that>
2: one, some, or all indiscriminately of whatever quantity: 
    a: one or more —used to indicate an undetermined number or amount any money> 
    b: all —used to indicate a maximum or whole any help he can get> 
    c: a or some without reference to quantity or extent any favor at all>
a: unmeasured or unlimited in amount, number, or extent <any quantity you desire> 
    b: appreciably large or extended any length of time>

Choose is easy. When you are told Choose One, you know you can freely select one item. When in context with advances and skill groups, you can freely select one skill group.

Any is also easy. When someone says any with no other limiters attached, it means one, some, or all. Not just one and thats it.

So when FFG lists Talent (Any) it doesn't mean Talent (Choose One), it means Talent (One, some, or all skill groups). Choose one and any mean different things.

 

Now, for fairness, there are two oddballs I will list. First is the Interagator's advance tables in Accension which include Talent (any) and Skill (any). These obviously mean any talent or skill you wish to take with that advance. "AHA!" you say, "That proves I'm right!" No, it does not. This is a differnent situation. The interagator career path specifically mentions this in fact. In this case the (any) means, "…these are skills that can be chosen from ANY basic career path from the Dark Heresy rulebook." This instance includes a specific context of what kind you can choose with (any). While the deathwatch (any) is always listed for skill groups for a skill or talent which is, normally, offered only once.

Second, in Into the Storm an ork frreebooter advance lists, "(Any 1 from Ork armoury)." This obviously does not support your (any) means (Choose One) argument as the option lists both a limitation on the amount and kind you can choose from.

 

Finally, FFG lists skill or talent advances a character may purchase multiple skill groups for as Talent (Any)
i.e. Tactics (Any)
As seen in: Deathwatch

This is the ONLY logical interpretation of the option. These talents and skills are offored only once but many specialities not only might want to, but should purchase more than one of these. For instance, should a librarian only ever be allowed to purchase a single scholastic or forbidden lore? This would make no sense whatsoever, but if your (Any)=(Choose One) argument was correct it would be the case. With the exception of OPTIONAL advanced specialties, many skills; such as speak language, drive, and pilot; are available only once in all of a character's advance tables. If (Any)=(Choose One) this is unconciounable as then, what's the point of hypno-conditioning? This is how space marines learn new skills and knowledge literally the day before they need to know it. Such as learning the language of a xenos species before infiltrating their planet to track down genestealers or heretics. If you've already purchased your 1 language skill group you can't learn another one? Preposterous. (Any) means any, not choose one.



#13 The_Grey

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:09 PM

herichimo said:

 

If Talent (any) was the same as Talent (Choose One) wouldn't it be just as easy to put in Talent (Choose One)? Why go to all the trouble changing the way you write Talent (Choose One)? Why have Two seperate ways of writing Talent (Choose One) (Page 36 under "starting talents") in the rulebook to begin with? If, with some miracle, you can answer those 3 questions without sounding rediculous; then, and only then, will that argument have merit.

 

 

Because it's a different section of the book?  Perhaps the textual sections had a different editorial approach than the data tables?  Maybe (Any) fit better into the columns than (Choose One), especially when appending, "Signature Wargear (Hero) …"?

Aside from the dictionary definition of "choose", can you say why you think a Rank 1 Imperial Fist ought to be able to max out all the Tactics skills for 2000 XP?  Balance-wise, how does that fit with the written general rule of advancement H.B.M.C. mentioned, that you get to take it once per entry on the Advancement tables?  Even fluff-wise, isn't this something only a veteran marine should be able to claim?  



#14 Cryhavok

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:37 PM

Honestly I view this as one of those things that could be argued endlessly and logically from both sides. That makes it a GMs call. Pick the way that works for your group and roll with it. Then if FFG ever states which way it is conclusively, if yours isnt the "correct" way, declare it a house rule and change nothing. Your game should fit you and your group, regardless of what some stranger says.




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