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Clarification needed - Force Rating.


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#1 Incarnate

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:31 PM

Hey there..

 

Today when I was creating a Hired Gun: Merc / Force Sensitive: Exile, I couldn't find any rule that explicitly stated how to increase force rating above

1, except for upgrading to the last level in the specialization tree that would allow to gain +1 Force Rating. I've been trying to find answer here on the forum and the weekly updates but to no avail. The only thing I could find was about some claiming that Force Rating is a characteristic and should be upgradable  through Dedication - which to me would seem like a character would have to spend an extreme amount of time learning the ways of the force through going through 5 different career specializations. - To me, that just doesn't seem right nor logical and especially not when compared to the time it takes for Luke Skywalker to become a master of the force. According to episode IV, V and VI and various other sources including Starwars Core Rulebook (Revised edition) he begins with the Force Sensitive. He barely begins his training in episode IV and truly begins his training in episode V on Degobah. In the end of episode VI he is a jedi knight. To compare him to EETE he would have a force rating around 3-5, though most likely 3-4. His other Career would be Explorer: Fringer - which only would allow him one Dedication if he went all the way down the tree in the Fringer specialization tree which would at any rate only allow him 3 - but moviewise that would be very inaccurate since its not from his Fringer career he becomes stronger in the force, because he is spending much more time training and specializing in the force.

Another example from the EETE is the Forsaken Jedi [NEMESIS] which is noted to have a Force Rating of 3 but with no specialization to back it up. However when comparing what specializations it has from the Force Sensitivity: Exile Tree it has the following:
Dodge (not from this tree)
-Uncanny Senses 2 (on tier 1)
-Sense Danger (on tier 3)
-Sense Emotion (on tier 3)

Note: When compared to Force Sensitivity: Exile Tree none of these are connected in the tree - which means that they either don't follow the standard
rules for selecting talents or the follow a different tree which is not available to the testers. This also make it seem like that its for each tier the character has talents in that increases the force rating by 1.


Is this a correct assumption?


Also something I noticed there are no rules on constructing a lightsaber and the price of 50.000 CR seems right, IF its from the Black Market. There should be a construction cost at the very least. I know that the rules for the skill Mechanics to some degree can cover the construction of the lightsaber, but not really in detail. Just to mention it Luke also constructs also his own saber between episode V and VI - which would make him a Jedi Knight because its's the Jedi Tradition / Test.

Back to the initial topic - Clarifications on Force Rating would be great. :)

Thank you..

 

// Incarnate



#2 aramis

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:07 PM

I would allow Determination to used on Force as if it is an attribute, provided that force had already been opened from opening a Force tree. 



#3 eldath

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:20 AM

My understanding and reading of the force rules as both player of a force exile/slicer and a GM is that you can buy it up to rating two and that is it since the force rules are not designed for playing full force users. I would expect the Rebellion book to up that to perhaps 3 or 4 with the rest (probably including Lightsaber construction) coming with Force and Destiny. The official force rules within Edge of the Empire are not designed for full force users only exiles and people with a weak gift.

That said, should you want more powerful force users there is no reason you could not play with that, as with anything house rules are always an option. My thought would be if you want to have full force users, create or find full force user careers or specialization trees which would include more force rating increases. Again, that would come firmly under the catagory of house rules.

E



#4 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:31 AM

Per the rules, the only option to raise your Force Rating is the talent named Force Rating, which is nestled in the bottom row of the Force-Sensitive Exile talent tree.  So yes, that means the maximum Force Rating a PC can get is a 2.

This isn't an oversight, but rather an intentional design decision to keep Force-user PCs at the lower end of the power spectrum, which fits the default setting (Dark Times and early Rebellion Era) where Force-users are small in number and generally weak in power.

aramis said:

I would allow Determination to used on Force as if it is an attribute, provided that force had already been opened from opening a Force tree. 

Bear in mind this is a house rule, and not something even remotely supported by the rules, since Determination specifically applies to Characteristics, and not once in the book is Force Rating ever refered to as such.


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#5 Thebearisdriving

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:05 PM

Donovan Morningfire said:

Per the rules, the only option to raise your Force Rating is the talent named Force Rating, which is nestled in the bottom row of the Force-Sensitive Exile talent tree.  So yes, that means the maximum Force Rating a PC can get is a 2.

This isn't an oversight, but rather an intentional design decision to keep Force-user PCs at the lower end of the power spectrum, which fits the default setting (Dark Times and early Rebellion Era) where Force-users are small in number and generally weak in power.

aramis said:

 

I would allow Determination to used on Force as if it is an attribute, provided that force had already been opened from opening a Force tree. 

 

 

Bear in mind this is a house rule, and not something even remotely supported by the rules, since Determination specifically applies to Characteristics, and not once in the book is Force Rating ever refered to as such.

 

Like Donovan said, Force rating is not a characteristic, but it follows many of the same general guidelines (you can't raise it with xp, etc.).  It does not interact with talents or options that apply to or modify characteristics.  About 2 months ago I pointed out tha tthere really should be a clarifying sentence on this, since it's not part of the character creation section.

At present, there is no way to have more than a force rating 2 by the rules, and nothing really interacts with it.

That being said, it's your game, but right now that's the state of things.



#6 Tassedar

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:53 AM

rember your character does not have yoda or kenobie training you hence why Luke gets higher force rateing higher than you.



#7 Tassedar

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:53 AM

rember your character does not have yoda or kenobie training you hence why Luke gets higher force rateing higher than you.



#8 Tassedar

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:54 AM

crap internet caused double post sry



#9 Thebearisdriving

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:17 PM

Also rememebr that the skywalkers would likely start with a much higher force rating than the average character.  hence why he was a highly sought after figure, and how his "skills" were so high.

 



#10 aramis

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 01:25 AM

Thebearisdriving said:

Also rememebr that the skywalkers would likely start with a much higher force rating than the average character.  hence why he was a highly sought after figure, and how his "skills" were so high.

 

don't see much evidence for Luke starting higher… plenty that he gains it cheaper/faster, but not that he starts higher.



#11 Thebearisdriving

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:14 AM

aramis said:

Thebearisdriving said:

 

Also rememebr that the skywalkers would likely start with a much higher force rating than the average character.  hence why he was a highly sought after figure, and how his "skills" were so high.

 

 

don't see much evidence for Luke starting higher… plenty that he gains it cheaper/faster, but not that he starts higher.

 

other than he's the son of skywalker, the Jedi with the highest midi-clorian count ever. 

I don't see much evidence that he didn't start with it at a higher level and didn't need to develop it faster/cheaper. 

Entirely a matter of opinion, I'm simply stating that the skywalkers In particular dont follow normal character creation guidelines, since they are quite possibly the most legendary characters in SW. 

Land in the food for thought direction: since force exile has a requisite of Force rating 1, it is not a strong leap to say that other, better force specs may have higher requisite force ratings. So if Luke started with a FR 3, he might be able to skip the youngling training, even padawan, and slip right into Jedi knight training. Thus getting it faster/cheaper. Still, all a matter of opinio.  



#12 copperbell

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:21 AM

Three career possibilities with 1 being your original career, the second force exile and the third any other each of these have discipline and nothing prevents that from being used to increase Force Rating by 1 to a maximum of 4 barring the next two core rule book releases, that sound about right?



#13 Thebearisdriving

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:27 AM

copperbell said:

Three career possibilities with 1 being your original career, the second force exile and the third any other each of these have discipline and nothing prevents that from being used to increase Force Rating by 1 to a maximum of 4 barring the next two core rule book releases, that sound about right?

the only way RAW to increase force rating is the force rating talent which is only available in the exile specialization and can only be taken once. 

That's it. 

Now if you wish to house rule and home brew, it's fine by me, but it ain't in the rules. 

These conversations really make me hope the final book is much more explicit and clear about this. 



#14 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:04 PM

copperbell said:

Three career possibilities with 1 being your original career, the second force exile and the third any other each of these have discipline and nothing prevents that from being used to increase Force Rating by 1 to a maximum of 4 barring the next two core rule book releases, that sound about right?

Well, there's a couple of problems with that statement.

First, there's no hard cap on the number of specializations you can have, a change made fairly early on in the weekly updates.

Second, there's only one specialization (Force-Sensitive Exile) that has the Force Rating talent, which is the only means by which you can legally increase your Force Rating beyond the starting value of 1.  As noted above, the Dedication talent can't be used to increase Force Rating because said talent is limited strictly to Characteristics, something that Force Rating is not.

Also, when you cite "each of these have discipline" I can only assume you meant the Dedication talent, as Discipline is a skill in this system.


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#15 ShiKage

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:24 AM

The problem here is the desire of many players to be a Jedi or Jedi-like character and forgetting this is a system almost specifically designed to rule out such characters. Almost all Jedi have been hunted down and exterminated, even most force sensitives are killed or recruited into the Empire. As a character on the fringes of society you may have managed to go unnoticed but you suffer the disadvantage of having no one to teach you and thus your ability to advance is rather limited. Thus, the lack of a lightsaber skill and the ability to advance beyond Force Rating 2 is an intentional design feature of the system and not something that has been overlooked. 

Now, this doesn't prevent a GM wanting to introduce Jedi or more powerful force users into their campaign from doing so. It just means they will have to do the additional work of generating specializations and talent trees related to these advanced force users which will then allow them additional advancement in their Force Rating. 

Using Luke as an example is not really feasible for several reasons. Firstly, he actually had a teacher who is possibly one of the most experienced jedi ever and secondly, he is a legendary character with a very strong force background. Given that very few Jedi would have broken their vows and had children others in this time period claiming a similar background is highly unlikely and even with that, they wouldn't have a parent with the kind of force rating that Anakin most likely had.

As a side note, there was a review I read a week or two ago in which the reviewer mentioned some planned future products for the Edge of the Empire system. One focusing on the rebel vs empire conflict and military careers and specializations and another focusing on force users. I, unfortunately, can not find the review again now and the information was from no official source so I don't know how accurate it is. But it is a possibility that they will expand upon the force rules and such in the future providing those people wanting that aspect of the game with more to work with. But for the time being, they are not forgetting it but instead intentionally stating it is rare, uncommon and you're not going to be very good at it.



#16 aramis

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:03 AM

ShiKage said:

The problem here is the desire of many players to be a Jedi or Jedi-like character and forgetting this is a system almost specifically designed to rule out such characters. Almost all Jedi have been hunted down and exterminated, even most force sensitives are killed or recruited into the Empire. As a character on the fringes of society you may have managed to go unnoticed but you suffer the disadvantage of having no one to teach you and thus your ability to advance is rather limited. Thus, the lack of a lightsaber skill and the ability to advance beyond Force Rating 2 is an intentional design feature of the system and not something that has been overlooked. 

Lightsaber skill is present in the game - in the threat profiles. Likewise, the extended universe materials don't support your presumptions of most of them being recruited by the empire. In fact, the Emperor is still hunting down rogue jedi up to 4 ABY… when he ceases being emperor.



#17 ShiKage

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 05:31 AM

aramis said:

ShiKage said:

 

The problem here is the desire of many players to be a Jedi or Jedi-like character and forgetting this is a system almost specifically designed to rule out such characters. Almost all Jedi have been hunted down and exterminated, even most force sensitives are killed or recruited into the Empire. As a character on the fringes of society you may have managed to go unnoticed but you suffer the disadvantage of having no one to teach you and thus your ability to advance is rather limited. Thus, the lack of a lightsaber skill and the ability to advance beyond Force Rating 2 is an intentional design feature of the system and not something that has been overlooked. 

 

Lightsaber skill is present in the game - in the threat profiles. Likewise, the extended universe materials don't support your presumptions of most of them being recruited by the empire. In fact, the Emperor is still hunting down rogue jedi up to 4 ABY… when he ceases being emperor.

 

 

The fact that he is still hunting some does not mean that most are not killed or recruited. Certainly, that is the general outcome if one is discovered by the Empire. As for the lightsaber skil, I am going by the entries in the skill chapter and in the Lightsaber weapon description. The skill listing for player skills specifically does not present Lightsaber as a skill. Additionally, the description for the weapon indicates that they do not intend players to have access to this skill, stating a GM can add it but they don't suggest having it available.

My primary points however, are that you are not likely to find someone to train you in this current setting and that the game creators do not really intend for the players to currently be playing powerful force users. It's something some characters might have but they're not going to be jedi quality force users by the specific design of the system. I am hopeful that they will later release a book which will focus more on force powers and force users however, allowing this to be expanded.



#18 Locrious

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 08:12 AM

aramis said:

ShiKage said:

 

The problem here is the desire of many players to be a Jedi or Jedi-like character and forgetting this is a system almost specifically designed to rule out such characters. Almost all Jedi have been hunted down and exterminated, even most force sensitives are killed or recruited into the Empire. As a character on the fringes of society you may have managed to go unnoticed but you suffer the disadvantage of having no one to teach you and thus your ability to advance is rather limited. Thus, the lack of a lightsaber skill and the ability to advance beyond Force Rating 2 is an intentional design feature of the system and not something that has been overlooked. 

 

Lightsaber skill is present in the game - in the threat profiles. Likewise, the extended universe materials don't support your presumptions of most of them being recruited by the empire. In fact, the Emperor is still hunting down rogue jedi up to 4 ABY… when he ceases being emperor.

 

Both of you are partially correct. While a handful of Jedi still exist most have either been killed off or corrupted by Palpatine. Force Unleashed shows that there were, what, 5 or 6? Including Obi Wan and Yoda? The novels and comics show maybe 3 or 4 more than that… That’s less than 20 people in a galaxy of over 4 quadrillion beings!

Force Unleashed says a few Jedi were corrupted and turned into Royal Guards and Shadow Guards (which I’d love to see)! Others were turned into Emperor’s Hands like Mara Jade and Lumiya. Nevertheless, like 99% of the thousands of Jedi were wiped out simultaneously with Order 66.

Dark Times comics show that one or two Jedi Masters were able to hide some younglings to later join Luke’s New Jedi Order decades later (I’m not sure, but I think they all hid in Dooku’s hidden fortress in that Bounty Hunter game for PS2). That part is actually cannon because Fett tells Obi Wan that he was recruited by a man called Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden (Ep. 2).

Either way, you’re both right.






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