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The Trench Run - Rules Question


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#1 zachbunn

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:22 PM

As I was reading through all of my Star Wars LCG cards again, I stumbled upon the Trench Run and had a rules question. It reads,

"Enhance the Death Star dial. This enhancement cannot be targerted. You may engage the Death Star dial as though it were a dark side obejctive [it is not an objective]. If the dial has 10 or more damage, the light side wins the game."

It's important to note that it SPECIFICALLY states that it is not an objective. Now, the rules state:

 

Each enemy objective may be engaged only once per conflict phase.

So the question becomes, can the Death Star be attacked multiple times per conflict phase? It sounds like this is the case, but it's very unclear.

Zach

 

 

 


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#2 dbmeboy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:49 PM

I'll repost a version of my comment from my blog where you brought this up for the sake of the conversation:

I'm going to go with "no, you cannot engage it a second time" for this reason: if you were to engage it a second time, you would not be engaging it as if it was an objective because objectives cannot be engaged a second time.  I know it's not the most airtight argument being based on some tight semantics, but I think either way it's a semantics argument.  Hopefully FFG will include this in the FAQ.

Unrelated to what the rules as written are, I'm pretty sure the rules intent is that it can only be engaged once and the reminder that it is not an objective is to make it clear that you cannot hit it with Rebel Assault or Home One or such cards.



#3 just Logan

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:50 PM

"You may engage the Death Star dial as though it were a dark side obejctive" reads to me that for the pupose of engaging it, it is treated as though it were an objective, and the "it is not an objective" is to imply that for any other purpose it is not treated as an objective. So the cannot engage more than once applys because that falls under "as though it were a … objective" part of the card text. Without an answer from FFG, RAW is that when you attack it all rules reguarding attacking an objective would apply. Anything else kind of harkens back to the MtG beta "Opponent loses next turn" debate.



#4 Entropy42

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:57 AM

just Logan said:

"You may engage the Death Star dial as though it were a dark side obejctive" reads to me that for the pupose of engaging it, it is treated as though it were an objective, and the "it is not an objective" is to imply that for any other purpose it is not treated as an objective. So the cannot engage more than once applys because that falls under "as though it were a … objective" part of the card text. Without an answer from FFG, RAW is that when you attack it all rules reguarding attacking an objective would apply. Anything else kind of harkens back to the MtG beta "Opponent loses next turn" debate.

I think this is a spot-on analysis.  The "as if it were" phrasing is used in other LCGs to denote you treat it as X for the purposes of some action; in this case engagement.  The next sentence is telling you the card type does not actually change, for the purposes of cards that target an objective.

Also, I wonder how many people here were alive during the the MtG beta :)



#5 wormiespice

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:16 AM

the enhancement changes the dial to an objective and then it can be engaged once per turn 



#6 wormiespice

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:18 AM

that is how i think it works , it will take 10 turns to destroy it 



#7 Entropy42

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:40 AM

wormiespice said:

that is how i think it works , it will take 10 turns to destroy it 

Uh, no it won't.  You can deal more than 1 damage to it in a single attack.



#8 cpjolicoeur

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:58 AM

Entropy42 said:

wormiespice said:

 

that is how i think it works , it will take 10 turns to destroy it 

 

 

Uh, no it won't.  You can deal more than 1 damage to it in a single attack.

 

Plus, if you could only damage it once per turn, it would always net out even or even +1 since the DS advances it at least 1 place per turn.



#9 Traden Myr

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:29 AM

So can the LS damage the Trench Run enhanced Death Star dial with the balance of the Force bonus?



#10 Toqtamish

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:47 AM

Traden Myr said:

 

So can the LS damage the Trench Run enhanced Death Star dial with the balance of the Force bonus?

 

 

No, the death star dial is not an objective with Trench Run. It is only treated as an objective in that it can be engaged like an objective. The light side balance of the Force power allows you to deal damage to an objective which the Death Star Dial is not.

 



#11 greyseerikrit

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:02 PM

Honestly, this could be argued either way.  It would have created a lot less confusion if they would left off the "it is not an objective" line.  It easily could have been given something like "immune to other effects" or something like that.  But by putting the "it is not an objective" in there, why can't you engage it more than once?  Rulebook clearly states each objective can only be engaged once, Trench Run gives the dial the ability to be engaged, but clearly states that it is not an objective.

Until there is an official ruling, I am inclined to play it that it can be engaged more than once.

I do find it amusing that you can attack Trench Run with Home One and put a damage on each objective though.



#12 DailyRich

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:30 PM

To me, "You may engage the Death Star dial as though it were a dark side objective" is a pretty clear indicator that you follow the rules of engagement for objectives.



#13 Toqtamish

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:20 AM

DailyRich said:

To me, "You may engage the Death Star dial as though it were a dark side objective" is a pretty clear indicator that you follow the rules of engagement for objectives.

 

This exactly, there is no reason to think otherwise that has any logic. The card is pretty clear in that it can be engaged LIKE an objective and therefore follows engagement rules. That is all. It is NOT an actual objective for other card effects.



#14 Vaapad

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 02:10 AM

Once per turn "as if it were an objective" makes sense to me.  As others have noted, specifying that the DS Dial is not, in fact, an objective reads like an attempt to make it immune to damage from other games/card effects.


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#15 greyseerikrit

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:26 AM

Everyone is ruling this off of "intent", which I completely understand. I get it.  But my previous post still holds true.  I am going off of the actual rules and not intent.

I want a dispute from a rules standpoint and not intent.



#16 AngryMojo

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:49 AM

The main question about the Trench Run that I have right now is wether or not the unopposed bonus applies to the Death Star dial.  Because the rulebook states you deal one additional damage to the objective, will the non-objective engagement deal damage?  By the wording I'd say no, but what would the intent be?

 

Much like the objective "Fleeing the Empire."  At the moment it allows you to place a shielding token after you refresh, but by order of operations you remove all shielding tokens immediately after effects that occur "after you refresh."  I'm pretty sure that one's a typo of some sort.



#17 Darth Corvus

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:03 PM

Entropy42 said:

Also, I wonder how many people here were alive during the the MtG beta :)

I imagine a good many people here are 20 or older. You just made me feel really old, though. I started playing Magic when you could buy Moxes for $5 and Black Lotuses for $10. And none of us did because that was way too much money to pay for a single card. But we had so many copies of every dual land that when we opened them in packs we would rip them in half and throw them on the ground. Probably could have bought my house with all those destroyed dual lands.

Back on topic, I agree with it only being able to be engaged once per turn. It can be engaged like an objective. An objective can only be engaged once per turn. When you try to engage it a second time, you have to check to see if you are indeed engaging it 'like an objective'. If you find you are not--like, say you are engaging it for a second time this turn--the engagement is cancelled because you are not following the rules of engagement.



#18 greyseerikrit

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 03:32 PM

Darth Corvus said:

Entropy42 said:

 

Also, I wonder how many people here were alive during the the MtG beta :)

 

 

I imagine a good many people here are 20 or older. You just made me feel really old, though. I started playing Magic when you could buy Moxes for $5 and Black Lotuses for $10. And none of us did because that was way too much money to pay for a single card. But we had so many copies of every dual land that when we opened them in packs we would rip them in half and throw them on the ground. Probably could have bought my house with all those destroyed dual lands.

Back on topic, I agree with it only being able to be engaged once per turn. It can be engaged like an objective. An objective can only be engaged once per turn. When you try to engage it a second time, you have to check to see if you are indeed engaging it 'like an objective'. If you find you are not--like, say you are engaging it for a second time this turn--the engagement is cancelled because you are not following the rules of engagement.

You need to read the entire card and not just the three words you want to see.  Trench Run clearly states it is not an objective.  So, since it's not an objective, you can engage it more than once and it does not suffer the unopposed bonus damage.  Why? you ask, because as stated earlier, it is not an objective.

Again, from a rules standpoint, this holds up.  Anyone can argue "intent" until they are blue in the face.



#19 DailyRich

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 04:01 PM

But the card clearly states "engage as an objective," and objectives can only be engaged once per turn.  There's no intent or inference there, it's plainly written on the card.



#20 Toqtamish

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 04:01 PM

It is engaged like an objective. Objectives can be engaged only once. So the Death Star dial can be engaged once like an objective. 

 

 

 

 






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