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Evacuate? In our moment of triumph?


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#1 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:07 AM

I think you overestimate their chances!

…because in my experience, Rebels simply don't win. I'm at nine games now, and Imperials have won every match. I've heard of other people winning with Rebels, and even played at a table next to a game where it happened, but I haven't seen it personally.

What happens instead is that the Rebels lose their first ship no later than the second round of engagement. Usually it's either Biggs or, if Biggs isn't present, Wedge; that leaves the Rebel side tied or slightly behind on points even if they've managed to bag a pair of TIEs--which, given that TIEs usually have either focus or an evade token, is unlikely.

Now the Rebels are looking at a game where they're behind on points with one of their key pilots off the board. They're also still outnumbered somewhere between 2:1 and 3:1, depending on list choices. The Imperial player has the tactical initiative: depending on board position, he or she can either play aggressively if another kill looks likely, or play conservatively and just run out the clock.

So, to reiterate, it looks like one TIE per round is an acceptable Imperial loss rate, and you have to exceed that for Rebels to pull ahead. And I just can't see how that happens, barring a very lucky streak for the Rebels. So what am I doing wrong, and/or what's wrong with my logic here? Those of you who play Rebels and win consistently, what are your lists, and what are your tactics?



#2 Sushisamurai

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:27 AM

Can't say I feel the same, I have played both sides…There have been games where I'll have several of my TIEs one shot easy. 



#3 Emrico

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:36 AM

Vorpal Sword said:

I think you overestimate their chances!

…because in my experience, Rebels simply don't win. I'm at nine games now, and Imperials have won every match. I've heard of other people winning with Rebels, and even played at a table next to a game where it happened, but I haven't seen it personally.

What happens instead is that the Rebels lose their first ship no later than the second round of engagement. Usually it's either Biggs or, if Biggs isn't present, Wedge; that leaves the Rebel side tied or slightly behind on points even if they've managed to bag a pair of TIEs--which, given that TIEs usually have either focus or an evade token, is unlikely.

Now the Rebels are looking at a game where they're behind on points with one of their key pilots off the board. They're also still outnumbered somewhere between 2:1 and 3:1, depending on list choices. The Imperial player has the tactical initiative: depending on board position, he or she can either play aggressively if another kill looks likely, or play conservatively and just run out the clock.

So, to reiterate, it looks like one TIE per round is an acceptable Imperial loss rate, and you have to exceed that for Rebels to pull ahead. And I just can't see how that happens, barring a very lucky streak for the Rebels. So what am I doing wrong, and/or what's wrong with my logic here? Those of you who play Rebels and win consistently, what are your lists, and what are your tactics?

I win quite a lot with the Rebels.  Against both Imperials and other Rebels.  My two primary Rebel builds are:

Dutch Vander - R5-K6, 2x Torps, Ion Cannon

Gold Squadron Y - R5-D8, 2x Torps, Ion Cannon

Gold Squadron Y - R2, Torp, Ion Cannon

and

Wedge - Expert Handling, R2

Biggs - R2F2

Horton Salm - R5, 2x Torps, Ion Cannon

If my torps do average, I usually win.  The games I lose are normally because I either don't get to use my torps or they whiff.  I've got about a 50% win rate with the 3 Y-Wing build and I've only lost to Imperials 3 times with this build.

The Horton, Wedge, Biggs build just hits brutally hard.  I haven't lost to Imperials with that build yet but it does lose to Rebels.

I try to foul up the enemy with Ion Cannons and set them up for shots by dictating their movements.  Nothing fancy, just a pretty standard Ion Cannon tactic.

My experience is about the opposite of yours.  I see Rebels winning a lot and Imperials have to have just the right build to get wins.

Jim


Rebels: 3 YT-1300s, 6 X-Wings, 6 Y-Wings, 6 A-Wings, 6 B-Wings, 4 HWK-290s,10 Z-95s, 3 E-Wings, 2 GR-75s, 1 CR-90
Imperials: 8 TIEs, 4 TIE Adv, 12 TIE Interceptors, 3 Firesprays, 6 TIE Bombers, 5 Lambdas, 3 TIE Defenders, 4 Phantoms

#4 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:39 AM

Emrico said:

Wedge - Expert Handling, R2

Biggs - R2F2

Horton Salm - R5, 2x Torps, Ion Cannon

If my torps do average, I usually win.  The games I lose are normally because I either don't get to use my torps or they whiff.  I've got about a 50% win rate with the 3 Y-Wing build and I've only lost to Imperials 3 times with this build.

The Horton, Wedge, Biggs build just hits brutally hard.  I haven't lost to Imperials with that build yet but it does lose to Rebels.

I guess the torpedoes are part of my problem: I generally need 2 torpedoes per TIE. I don't use Salm a lot, and maybe that's part of the problem, but my experience hasn't been good… although I suppose Wedge is about as good as a torpedo anyway, and he and Salm working together will probably wreck a TIE every round.

Thanks for giving me something else to try out!



#5 Pygon

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:04 PM

A 3 YWing build?  Intriguing.


Core/Wave 1: 4 X-Wings, 3 Y-Wings, 8 TIE Fighters, 3 TIE Advanceds; Wave 2: 2 YT-1300s, 3 A-Wings, 2 Firesprays, 3 TIE Interceptors

Wave 3: 3 B-Wings, 3 TIE Bombers, 3 HWK-290s, 2 Lambda Shuttles; Imperial Aces: 2 Royal Guard Interceptors, 2 Elite Interceptors

Huge ships: 1 Tantive IV, 2 Transports, 2 alternate X-Wings; Rebel Aces: 1 prototype A-Wing, 1 Elite B-Wing

Wave 4: 3 E-Wings, 6 Z95s, 3 TIE Defenders, 3 TIE Phantoms


#6 CaptainRook

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:38 PM

I keep winning and winning as long as I have no less than two Y-Wings.  In fact, the only games I've lost were as Imperial.  I also thinks Biggs' ability is very counterintuitive, as I'd rather force my opponent to spread their shots across my ships rather than focusing on something.  I will not include Biggs in my lists.  


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#7 ScottieATF

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:55 PM

CaptainRook said:

I keep winning and winning as long as I have no less than two Y-Wings.  In fact, the only games I've lost were as Imperial.  I also thinks Biggs' ability is very counterintuitive, as I'd rather force my opponent to spread their shots across my ships rather than focusing on something.  I will not include Biggs in my lists.  

What you are saying would make sense if there was any way to force you oppoment to spread thier shots.  Presently there is no reason to not fly tight, overlap fields of fire, and throw all of your shots into one target until its dead.  Asteriods can in some ways help, but they don't do enough, as you can just collapse in once around them.

There is just no real, consistant way, to force your opponent into spreading thier shots out.  Your statement just doesn't hold water.



#8 ScottieATF

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:03 PM

Vorpal Sword said:

I think you overestimate their chances!

…because in my experience, Rebels simply don't win. I'm at nine games now, and Imperials have won every match. I've heard of other people winning with Rebels, and even played at a table next to a game where it happened, but I haven't seen it personally.

What happens instead is that the Rebels lose their first ship no later than the second round of engagement. Usually it's either Biggs or, if Biggs isn't present, Wedge; that leaves the Rebel side tied or slightly behind on points even if they've managed to bag a pair of TIEs--which, given that TIEs usually have either focus or an evade token, is unlikely.

Now the Rebels are looking at a game where they're behind on points with one of their key pilots off the board. They're also still outnumbered somewhere between 2:1 and 3:1, depending on list choices. The Imperial player has the tactical initiative: depending on board position, he or she can either play aggressively if another kill looks likely, or play conservatively and just run out the clock.

So, to reiterate, it looks like one TIE per round is an acceptable Imperial loss rate, and you have to exceed that for Rebels to pull ahead. And I just can't see how that happens, barring a very lucky streak for the Rebels. So what am I doing wrong, and/or what's wrong with my logic here? Those of you who play Rebels and win consistently, what are your lists, and what are your tactics?

I've had intial sucess with the Rebels, and continued sucess even as our experience level has grown.

I can firmly say there is no reason why Biggs, in particular, is going down in the second round consistantly.  That is only going to be the case if you are constantly rushing into Range 1 with a full group of TiEs.  And frankly there is absolutely no reason to do that.  You have access to defensive measures and better ranged elements, and I don't know if you are using them.



#9 kmanweiss

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:19 AM

Player skill is the problem.

This is what I'm constantly seeing in various forums.  If the Rebs are constantly winning, Imp players are doing some really dumb stuff.

 

"Biggs is bad because it causes the Imps to focus fire, and I'd rather have them spread their damage."  What the heck kind of horrible Imp player are you facing off against?  The Imp player failing to focus fire is why you are beating them, not due to a Rebel advantage.

"My 3 ship rebel build always wins!"  Dig some more and you find that they are playing an Imp that is only using 4 or 5 ships.

"My protons are devestating!"  Dig some more and you find out the Imp player is using a focus action at range 3 in hopes of being able to do damage with primary weapons.

The opposite is also true though.  If the Imps never lose, the Rebels probably haven't figured out the Rebel synergies.

 

I honestly think the game is pretty well balanced, but I do believe that the Imps can give themselves a slight edge if they build the proper teams and use the correct tactics.



#10 Alamoth

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:27 AM

Too many people seem to focus on the idea of matching firepower. I have to assume these people are playing on small tables with no obstacles. Throw down an asteroid field (or even an asteroid belt) and maybe using the entire playing surface.

Maneuvering your ships is of critical importance. The only reason the Empire focuses fire is because you let them do so. The same goes for the other way around. If you're running three X-Wings against eight TIE Fighters then you need to fly right into that Asteroid Field and use it to your advantage. You have superior mobility.

Player skill and the ability to maneuver your ships strategically are rewarded much more than picking the right ships.



#11 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:45 AM

ScottieATF said:

I've had intial sucess with the Rebels, and continued sucess even as our experience level has grown.

I can firmly say there is no reason why Biggs, in particular, is going down in the second round consistantly.  That is only going to be the case if you are constantly rushing into Range 1 with a full group of TiEs.  And frankly there is absolutely no reason to do that.  You have access to defensive measures and better ranged elements, and I don't know if you are using them.

 

One factor I didn't mention in the OP is that my home table is a 42"-diameter round table, which leaves me a square playing space about 29" on a side rather than the regulation 36". Games on that table close faster and have less space available for evasion; asteroids take up most of the available space, with narrow lanes between them, and that leads to some impressive furballs in the available open space (followed by survivors looping around or through the asteroid field to gain position for the next pass).

But Biggs with R2-F2 is still pretty much toast by the time he's taken 10-12 attacks, which is the third round of engagement at the latest. Biggs with R2-D2 is a mistake I've made several times, and he dies even faster than that--maybe 6-8 attacks, since he's worse at evasion and recovers at most one shield between combat rounds.

Part of it has been a learning experience: don't run Wedge without Biggs, don't run R2-D2 except on Luke, the mode for torpedo damage against TIEs with focus is 0, etc. But comments like yours make me believe I'm still missing something. What defensive measures do you mean? What ranged elements should I be using?



#12 Parakitor

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:19 AM

CaptainRook said:

 

I also thinks Biggs' ability is very counterintuitive, as I'd rather force my opponent to spread their shots across my ships rather than focusing on something.  I will not include Biggs in my lists.  

 

Amen!

 

Alamoth said:

 

Too many people seem to focus on the idea of matching firepower. I have to assume these people are playing on small tables with no obstacles. Throw down an asteroid field (or even an asteroid belt) and maybe using the entire playing surface.

Maneuvering your ships is of critical importance. The only reason the Empire focuses fire is because you let them do so. The same goes for the other way around. If you're running three X-Wings against eight TIE Fighters then you need to fly right into that Asteroid Field and use it to your advantage. You have superior mobility.

Player skill and the ability to maneuver your ships strategically are rewarded much more than picking the right ships.

 

 

Amen to that, too! I think Alamoth's comment is what CaptainRook was talking about. You dictate how many ships they can line up for a shot by moving out of the way. I can't remember who said it, but flying unpredictably is of utmost importance for Rebels. I've taken that advice to heart.

This is why I fly a squad that's very similar to Emrico's Wedge, Horton & Biggs, but I choose Rookie + R2-D2 instead of Biggs. This means there is no synergy, and no reason to stick together. The opponent can't say, "Well, he's got to stay in range 1, and two fighters will only fit at range 1 at points X and Y, so I'll line up there." It's worked for me (so far) against Rebel and Imperial squads alike.


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#13 CaptainRook

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:21 AM

ScottieATF said:

 

CaptainRook said:

 

I keep winning and winning as long as I have no less than two Y-Wings.  In fact, the only games I've lost were as Imperial.  I also thinks Biggs' ability is very counterintuitive, as I'd rather force my opponent to spread their shots across my ships rather than focusing on something.  I will not include Biggs in my lists.  

 

 

What you are saying would make sense if there was any way to force you oppoment to spread thier shots.  Presently there is no reason to not fly tight, overlap fields of fire, and throw all of your shots into one target until its dead.  Asteriods can in some ways help, but they don't do enough, as you can just collapse in once around them.

There is just no real, consistant way, to force your opponent into spreading thier shots out.  Your statement just doesn't hold water.

 

 

 

You're absolutely correct, my maneuvering strategy that seems to consistently work is imaginary.  Unlike you, who seems to follow me around on the forums and Troll my every statement.  I know there's not a mechanic that forces you to shoot at a different target than the one that's damaged….it's called maneuvering.  


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#14 CaptainRook

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:25 AM

Parakitor said:

 

CaptainRook said:

 

I also thinks Biggs' ability is very counterintuitive, as I'd rather force my opponent to spread their shots across my ships rather than focusing on something.  I will not include Biggs in my lists.  

 

Amen!

 

Alamoth said:

 

Too many people seem to focus on the idea of matching firepower. I have to assume these people are playing on small tables with no obstacles. Throw down an asteroid field (or even an asteroid belt) and maybe using the entire playing surface.

Maneuvering your ships is of critical importance. The only reason the Empire focuses fire is because you let them do so. The same goes for the other way around. If you're running three X-Wings against eight TIE Fighters then you need to fly right into that Asteroid Field and use it to your advantage. You have superior mobility.

Player skill and the ability to maneuver your ships strategically are rewarded much more than picking the right ships.

 

 

Amen to that, too! I think Alamoth's comment is what CaptainRook was talking about. You dictate how many ships they can line up for a shot by moving out of the way. I can't remember who said it, but flying unpredictably is of utmost importance for Rebels. I've taken that advice to heart.

This is why I fly a squad that's very similar to Emrico's Wedge, Horton & Biggs, but I choose Rookie + R2-D2 instead of Biggs. This means there is no synergy, and no reason to stick together. The opponent can't say, "Well, he's got to stay in range 1, and two fighters will only fit at range 1 at points X and Y, so I'll line up there." It's worked for me (so far) against Rebel and Imperial squads alike.

 

 

The maneuvering dial is the most important, and least discussed aspect of this game.  We go into rants about whether or not you have 42.5% chance of hitting Dark Curse at Range 3 with a Nerf Gun, when none of that much matters if they don't get prime opportunities to attack.  The maneuvering dial is also very useful at avoiding that big giant Napoleonic Volley I see in the first three turns of so many games.  


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#15 Picasso

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:43 AM

If you are playing rebels the advantage is at a distance. You would think that would go to the imps having four evade dice but it doesn't. Imps have a hard enough time scoring a hit on two attack dice.  Let us be honest about this.  All these discussions are void after the Kessel Run.  But I digress, I think the strength of the rebels is when you play the missions.  The missions are balanced, challenging, and fun.  I find it disappointing that there have been no mission events yet for the game.  The new ship event isn't any different from a regular 100 pointtourneythat favors the Empire.

In the mean time I suggest rebel players try the following;

biggs at range three of ties with rest of your fighters at range two but range one of Biggs.

horton with torps.

Don't take just Y-wings or X-wings. Mix it up.

Balance out named pilots and generics.

after I got passed the learning curve with the Imps I only lost to Doug at worlds and that was some imp on imp crime.  I finally lost with the same list I took to worlds this past weekend.  I think my cousin is close to cracking the rebel list but it will take some time. Successfully using torps is a huge part of rebel domanince. 



#16 Alamoth

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:21 AM

CaptainRook said:

The maneuvering dial is the most important, and least discussed aspect of this game.  We go into rants about whether or not you have 42.5% chance of hitting Dark Curse at Range 3 with a Nerf Gun, when none of that much matters if they don't get prime opportunities to attack.  The maneuvering dial is also very useful at avoiding that big giant Napoleonic Volley I see in the first three turns of so many games.  

I agree completely. When my friend and I first sat down to play, he picked up the Imperials and I took the Rebels. The first thing we sorted out was the maneuvering. We've both played tabletop games for years and know all to well that the correct movement on an early turn can pay huge dividends later on. Learning how to best maneuver your ships to gain tactical advantage is paramount to winning.

Did you know that the TIE Fighter can only make 90 Degree Maneuver at 1 Speed? This is hugely important. Or that TIE Fighters can move forwards at up to a speed of 5, and can execute Koiogran Turns at speed 3 or 4? Critical information. Those eight TIE Fighters can't shoot what they can't see. X-Wings can't make a 90 Degree Maneuver at Speed 1 and can only go forwards up to Speed 4. They also can only execute a Koiogran Turn at Speed 4.

I'd learn the maneuvring dials long before I cared about the attack power or defensive capabilities of any ship.



#17 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:28 AM

CaptainRook said:

The maneuvering dial is also very useful at avoiding that big giant Napoleonic Volley I see in the first three turns of so many games.  

I would love to know how to consistently maneuver so that I can shoot at my enemy's flanks without taking return fire. I'm fairly good at doing that in the late game, particularly if I'm playing Imperials (barrel rolls and short turns make a huge difference).

But I'm not an experienced wargamer, and it feels like the conceit of starting the two forces at opposite edges of the table constrains my early decisions. Most combinations of movements bring my force closer to my opponent's force, in such a way that I can either:

A) Face the Imperials, and take their opening fire as the cost of being able to shoot back, or

B) Turn my firing arcs away from my opponent's ships, allowing them to shoot at my exposed flanks without the chance to shoot back.

Again, I would love to know how you're managing this as the Rebels in the early game. Being told I'm doing it wrong isn't very helpful, since that's been my assumption throughout the thread. I need to know what I'm doing wrong--or, rather, what the Rebels should be doing. How are you using your maneuvering dial to avoid the Napoleonic volley without sacrificing your ability to fire at all?



#18 CaptainRook

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:46 AM

Vorpal Sword said:

CaptainRook said:

 

The maneuvering dial is also very useful at avoiding that big giant Napoleonic Volley I see in the first three turns of so many games.  

 

I would love to know how to consistently maneuver so that I can shoot at my enemy's flanks without taking return fire. I'm fairly good at doing that in the late game, particularly if I'm playing Imperials (barrel rolls and short turns make a huge difference).

 

But I'm not an experienced wargamer, and it feels like the conceit of starting the two forces at opposite edges of the table constrains my early decisions. Most combinations of movements bring my force closer to my opponent's force, in such a way that I can either:

A) Face the Imperials, and take their opening fire as the cost of being able to shoot back, or

B) Turn my firing arcs away from my opponent's ships, allowing them to shoot at my exposed flanks without the chance to shoot back.

Again, I would love to know how you're managing this as the Rebels in the early game. Being told I'm doing it wrong isn't very helpful, since that's been my assumption throughout the thread. I need to know what I'm doing wrong--or, rather, what the Rebels should be doing. How are you using your maneuvering dial to avoid the Napoleonic volley without sacrificing your ability to fire at all?

I think it was said best in an earlier post about being unpredictable as a Rebel and perhaps, sometimes, ridiculously cautious.  Like I said here, I honestly don't know how to teach someone what to do with the dial.  I actually spent some time on the table just scooting miniatures around and getting a good idea of the geometry you're dealing with.  It really is just an experience thing, but if you actually were bored enough to do what I did, and sorta 'register' some plans to execute, it may help a lot.  I like to move up the flanks a lot, which really causes an Imperial player to have to tighten everything up.  They're also missing a critical maneuver which allows them to 'wheel' very well, and it can trip up a formation.  Yes, TIE fighters can slightly outmaneuver an X-Wing, but they can't typically do it in a way that allows them to concentrate their firepower effectively.  It's like a how a mongoose circles a cobra until it gets all knotted up and can't strike.  They keep swinging wild to get little pot shots at you until they're bouncing off of eachother and then you turn in to shotgun them.  


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#19 Picasso

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:59 AM

I did the samething. I put 12 asteroids down on a table and flew each ship through it. Then two ships at a time. I also played games with more than one set of asteroids. 



#20 CaptainRook

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:02 AM

Picasso said:

I did the samething. I put 12 asteroids down on a table and flew each ship through it. Then two ships at a time. I also played games with more than one set of asteroids. 

 

This is one of those weird games where it really does benefit you to practice alone, at least as far as maneuvering goes.  It also really benefits you to prioritize what is really the most important in the game.  Pilot Skill and Maneuvering, in my opinion, are more important than any of the other stats.  While those stats are important, if you don't know your dial, the only stat you need to know is the green colored one.  


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