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#1 Cutievalkyrie

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:31 PM

1. Do i get kicked out into the street?

2. And what if a gate opens on a closed shop? Can i get in there again?

3. If yes, can i shop in there?

4. Whats the good of the spy trish comparing with other focus 3 investigators?



#2 Thomas Cartwright

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:54 PM

Cutievalkyrie said:

1. Do i get kicked out into the street?

2. And what if a gate opens on a closed shop? Can i get in there again?

3. If yes, can i shop in there?

4. Whats the good of the spy trish comparing with other focus 3 investigators?

1. Yes. Any investigators or monsters in a location are immediately kicked out into the street if it closes.

2. The presence of a gate trumps closure, so the gate goes on top of the closed marker. Once the gate is gone, the location is closed again.

3. You can never use a location's special text when a gate is open there, so no. (You also can't pick an encounter card in a location with an open gate.)

4. I don't know this one.



#3 Cutievalkyrie

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:28 PM

Thank you. Here are three more questions if you would answer i will appreciate very much:

1. If i am transported to a new location because of the effect of a location card in encounter phase,  and there are  clue tokens at the new location, can i pick them up immediately?

2.If the answer is yes for question 1,  during move phase, if i take a train or a ferry to a new location with clue tokens, can i pick them up since i am 'transported' there, and then keep moving to other places?

3.If clue tokens appear at my location during the myth phase, can i pick them up immediately without actions?



#4 Thomas Cartwright

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:57 PM

Cutievalkyrie said:

Thank you. Here are three more questions if you would answer i will appreciate very much:

1. If i am transported to a new location because of the effect of a location card in encounter phase,  and there are  clue tokens at the new location, can i pick them up immediately?

2.If the answer is yes for question 1,  during move phase, if i take a train or a ferry to a new location with clue tokens, can i pick them up since i am 'transported' there, and then keep moving to other places?

3.If clue tokens appear at my location during the myth phase, can i pick them up immediately without actions?

 

1. A strict reading of the rules makes it sound like you can only pick up clues if you end your movement phase in the same location as them. However, I think most people play that you can pick up clues in your location at the end of any phase. Furthermore, I believe that one of the game's developers has confirmed this to be the case. So I would say that if you have an encounter at the Historical Society that sends you to the Black Cave, and there are clues at the Black Cave, you can take them upon arrival.

2. For this one, I'd say no. You can only take clues from the location where you END your movement, not someplace in the middle of your movement. See page 8 of the rules, under "Picking Up Clues," for this rule. This is to stop investigators with high movements to duck into and out of locations just to scoop up clues, without having to risk a dangerous encounter. Note, however, that you can duck into a location to trade with another investigator and then back up and continue your movement, as long as you have the movement points to do so.

3. Yes. This is on page 10 of the rules, under "2. Place Clue Token."



#5 Full Doom Track

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:45 PM

Cutievalkyrie said:

Thank you. Here are three more questions if you would answer i will appreciate very much:

1. If i am transported to a new location because of the effect of a location card in encounter phase,  and there are  clue tokens at the new location, can i pick them up immediately?

2.If the answer is yes for question 1,  during move phase, if i take a train or a ferry to a new location with clue tokens, can i pick them up since i am 'transported' there, and then keep moving to other places?

3.If clue tokens appear at my location during the myth phase, can i pick them up immediately without actions?

I'd like to clarify a couple of things about picking up clues and movement.  This is definitely a grey area, as far as the rules are concerned because the rules are implicit about only allowing clue token pick-up when an investigator ends their movement at that location.  Before you get concerned about me not acknowledging the fact that the devs allow for picking up clue tokens that spawn in your location let me just say that the wording of these posts is generally unclear as to exactly when and where these clue tokens may be picked up.  I'm also trying to find the original post for reference and can't seem to dig it up here (I think it's on BGG).

The developers did acknowledge that investigators automatically pick up clue tokens that spawn in their location during the mythos phase.  The wording here is important to me because being transported to the woods, having an encounter there and coming back (via Historical Society encounter) is NOT grounds for picking up those clue tokens (at the Woods).  This doesn't happen during the mythos or the movement phase so it doesn't make sense for an investigator to pick them up.  Also, the rules are quite clear about investigators' movement ending if they decide to pick up clue tokens.  That means if you take a bus somewhere, you can't grab the clue tokens at the bus stop and go on your merry way.

After all that is said, many people choose to interpret the developer's clarification in their own way and allow for investigators to pick up tokens with encounters that send them to a new location.  There's also arguments about what I just said in the paragraph above that are perfectly valid and you can make a case that an investigator technically ends his movement in a new location after the encounter.  This also seems to be a perfectly valid interpretation of the rules as they're written based on the developer's clarifications.  I choose to only allow it during the Mythos phase but I'm sure that either way you choose to play the game you will enjoy yourself.

 

Short answers:

#1: No

#2: Picking up clue tokens always ends your movement whether you're on a bus, plane, ship or train!

#3: Yes, you can pick up CTs if the Ancient One is kind enough to drop them on you during the Mythos Phase.  This has been clarified by the developers!

 

Hope this helps and happy gaming!



#6 Thomas Cartwright

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:07 PM

I was imagining an encounter that sends you to another location without recalling you back at the end of the phase. And even in that case, I think at the very least, you could only get those clues AFTER resolving whatever encounter you had at the new location. It's pretty clear that picking up clues is the last thing that happens in the movement phase (i.e. after you deal with any monsters in the location), so picking up clues in the encounter phase, if allowed at all, would happen at the very end.

Being able to collect clues that drop on you in the mythos phase is not a later developer clarification, it's in the rules, on page 10:

"Place a Clue token on the indicated location unless there is an open gate there. If one or more investigators are at that location, one of them (they should decide among themselves) may immediately take that Clue token."

So yes, a strict reading of the rules only lets you pick up clues at the very end of your movement, or if they spawn at your location during the Mythos phase.



#7 Full Doom Track

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:09 PM

Cutievalkyrie said:

1. Do i get kicked out into the street?

2. And what if a gate opens on a closed shop? Can i get in there again?

3. If yes, can i shop in there?

4. Whats the good of the spy trish comparing with other focus 3 investigators?

Cutievalkyrie said:

4. Whats the good of the spy trish comparing with other focus 3 investigators?

I noticed that one of your questions in the original post wasn't answered yet.  Please allow me take a moment to try and answer your question.  I'm sorry for the double post.

Trish Scarborough is a unique investigator among the bunch for a few reasons.  Firstly, most investigators have Speed offsetting Sneak on the first line and Will offsetting Fight on the second while Trish does not.  Secondly, Trish's focus changes during every Upkeep phase.  You'll notice that her special ability, "Abnormal Focus" causes her sliders to shift to the left at the beginning of every turn.  She can then move any of her three sliders one stop (space) to the right for a total of five times.  This is the reason that her stat lines are mixed around.  It keeps her stats from being very good unless you spend your stop movements on pushing them to the left.  For example, as Trish's fight stat increases her Sneak stat does as well.  If you spend 3 shifts to mover her Fight/Sneak stop to 4/6 you only have 2 other shifts you can use and will end up with low Will/Lore or Speed/Luck.  In this way, Trish can be a very versatile investigator but can be left high and dry if something unexpected happens (and it always does in Arkham).

To try and answer your question, my priting of Trish shows her as only having 1 focus, so I'm not entirely sure if you are comparing her to investigators with 3 focus or if you, for some reason, have a printing of Trish with 3 focus.  By any means, Trish is a "middle of the pack" investigator.  She takes a little bit of pracitce to play well and it's certainly nice when you have the right items.  She's generally regarded as one of the stronger investigators from Innsmouth (drawing on Tibs, stat report), but she does take some getting used to if you're used to playing conventional investigators.

I'm not sure if I was able to answer your question about Trish.  If I didn't, post again and clarify your question and I'm sure we'll be able to clear it up for you!

 

Note: Thank you to Thomas for clarifying the CT spawing during the Mythos phase!



#8 Cutievalkyrie

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:30 PM

Thank you. My point is, there are a lot of investigators who are versatile with focus 3.  With focus 3 he/she can always slide his/her bar almost to the right/left end.

Then why do we need a 'focus 4'(Trish) investigator with a 'poor' skill bars arrangement?



#9 Julia

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:21 PM

Cutievalkyrie said:

Thank you. My point is, there are a lot of investigators who are versatile with focus 3.  With focus 3 he/she can always slide his/her bar almost to the right/left end.

Then why do we need a 'focus 4'(Trish) investigator with a 'poor' skill bars arrangement?

Because Trish has the pairing of her skills made up in a different way from any other investigator. In this way you can have max Speed and Sneak at the same time, for instance, or max Will and max Fight, or max Lore and max Luck. This grants you a lot of strategy work: sending her to distant gates guarded by nasty monsters in now possible (max Speed = a lot of movement, max Sneak = even if you moved a lot, you can still manage to pass behind monsters instead of having your Sanity wasted before you enter the OW. Similar reasoning can be done for other pairing).

If she hadn't to push her sliders to the left at the beginning of the Upkeep phase, then you could abuse of her different skill pairings, setting the character completely off balance. Plus, don't forget you can actually push a little more the gal, simply by sacrificing a point of Stamina for each extra shift you want her skill slider to move after the first five movements (up to a max of three extra movements / turn). This grants her the ability of moving EIGHT times / turn the sliders, if necessary, which is absolutely terrific (the only other investigator able to similar performances is Wilson Richards, but he is way a worse investigator than Trish, especially if you play him with his Personal Story)

As for the movement & picking up clues, FDT is right. Nonetheless, some of us (including myself) play with the custom rule that, if an encounter instructs you to move to a different location and have an encounter there, you're allowed to pick up the clues, but you also have to deal with monsters eventually present at that location (something like "inside the encounter phase, you have a smaller subphase set consisting in another movement + another encounter")

Hope this helps


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#10 Jake yet again

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:30 PM

Even focus 3 will only allow you to move one slider set. Trish can set herself pretty much set herself how she needs to be based on the circumstances. Don't need to move but want to whack a huge monster. That'll be Fight and Will. To improve Trish, complete her personal story (which is pretty easy) and/or give her a Motorcycle.

Other characters with unusual Focus are Wilson Richards (Dunwich), who can set his sliders how he wants, Lily Chen (Kingsport) who can manipulate her Maximum Sanity and Stamina, and Isabella Hargreaves (Lovecraft Country), who can set her sliders outside of the Upkeep Phase, but is limitted by the number of music tokens she has.


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#11 Cutievalkyrie

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:34 PM

I see. Max sneak& speed/ max fight& will is the king! Thank you for ur detailed explanation guys!

Another question is,

About the basic fight skill, is it physical, magical, both or non of them? Is it affected by the immunity/ resistance of monsters?



#12 Julia

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:53 PM

Cutievalkyrie said:

Another question is,

About the basic fight skill, is it physical, magical, both or non of them? Is it affected by the immunity/ resistance of monsters?

The idea of the basic Fight skill is highlighting "how good you are at doing certain things" (there is a long thread recently posted where many of us give their take on this point). The important thing to know is: immunities / resistances of monsters influence the kind of items you can use against them, but NOT the basic fight skill. This means that against a monster with magical immunity you can use physical weapons, adding their bonuses to your Fight skill. If you have none, then you have to use only your Fight. If a monster has both immunities (like the Color out of Space), then you have to deal with it only with your Fight skill. But in case you have the Martial Arts skill, then you are allowed to add 4 extra dice. In case you use the Shotgun, you use the Fight skill alone, but the '6' count double, and so on.


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#13 Julia

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:55 PM

Jake yet again said:

To improve Trish, complete her personal story (which is pretty easy)

Not so sure I'm with you on this one, Jake! Out of ten games I played with Trish, I had her passing her PS just once. Encounters offering you the chance to earn two clues at the same time are not that easy to find (and clearly, you are not allowed to use the Science Building to pass her PS)


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#14 eiterorm

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:02 AM

Thomas Cartwright said:


1. A strict reading of the rules makes it sound like you can only pick up clues if you end your movement phase in the same location as them. However, I think most people play that you can pick up clues in your location at the end of any phase. Furthermore, I believe that one of the game's developers has confirmed this to be the case. So I would say that if you have an encounter at the Historical Society that sends you to the Black Cave, and there are clues at the Black Cave, you can take them upon arrival.
 

Full Doom Track said:


The developers did acknowledge that investigators automatically pick up clue tokens that spawn in their location during the mythos phase.  The wording here is important to me because being transported to the woods, having an encounter there and coming back (via Historical Society encounter) is NOT grounds for picking up those clue tokens (at the Woods).  This doesn't happen during the mythos or the movement phase so it doesn't make sense for an investigator to pick them up.  Also, the rules are quite clear about investigators' movement ending if they decide to pick up clue tokens.  That means if you take a bus somewhere, you can't grab the clue tokens at the bus stop and go on your merry way.
 

Julia said:


As for the movement & picking up clues, FDT is right. Nonetheless, some of us (including myself) play with the custom rule that, if an encounter instructs you to move to a different location and have an encounter there, you're allowed to pick up the clues, but you also have to deal with monsters eventually present at that location (something like "inside the encounter phase, you have a smaller subphase set consisting in another movement + another encounter")
 

So what's the consensus regarding this? Is there one at all? Personally, I think Julia's answer makes more sense. If you're allowed to pick up clue tokens when you move to the new location, (as in Thomas Cartwright's example) I'd say you also have to fight or evade any monsters present at the new location.


Thomas Cartwright said:


Being able to collect clues that drop on you in the mythos phase is not a later developer clarification, it's in the rules, on page 10:

"Place a Clue token on the indicated location unless there is an open gate there. If one or more investigators are at that location, one of them (they should decide among themselves) may immediately take that Clue token."

So yes, a strict reading of the rules only lets you pick up clues at the very end of your movement, or if they spawn at your location during the Mythos phase.
 

I thought I had read the rules quite thoroughly, but I must either have forgotten or not noticed this. (probably the former) The way I've previously ruled it, investigators are not allowed to pick up clue tokens in the mythos phase. This discovery makes it even easier to obtain clue tokens. =P

 



#15 Thomas Cartwright

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 03:07 AM

eiterorm said:

 

So what's the consensus regarding this? Is there one at all? Personally, I think Julia's answer makes more sense. If you're allowed to pick up clue tokens when you move to the new location, (as in Thomas Cartwright's example) I'd say you also have to fight or evade any monsters present at the new location.

 

 

I'm afraid it's no consensus. I can think of two times you might be tempted to grab clue tokens outside of movement or mythos phases:

1) In the upkeep phase, investigators Lost in Time & Space might want to return to a location with clues and then use their movement phase to go to another location with clues. A strict reading of the rules forbids taking the clues from the first location, but I'm guessing a lot of people here would allow it.

2) All of those encounter cards that send you to another location and either leave you there or have you come back afterwards. These encounters have other persistant issues as well (do you have to fight/evade monsters waiting there? what if the second encounter displaces you further? what if you're delayed by the second encounter? what if the second encounter drives you insane?) and I don't think we'll get consensus here on how to handle them without some official rulings.

The situation that's clearly taboo is picking up clues en passant by ducking into and out of locations during movement.



#16 Julia

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 03:45 AM

Thomas Cartwright said:

I'm afraid it's no consensus. I can think of two times you might be tempted to grab clue tokens outside of movement or mythos phases:

1) In the upkeep phase, investigators Lost in Time & Space might want to return to a location with clues and then use their movement phase to go to another location with clues. A strict reading of the rules forbids taking the clues from the first location, but I'm guessing a lot of people here would allow it.

2) All of those encounter cards that send you to another location and either leave you there or have you come back afterwards. These encounters have other persistant issues as well (do you have to fight/evade monsters waiting there? what if the second encounter displaces you further? what if you're delayed by the second encounter? what if the second encounter drives you insane?) and I don't think we'll get consensus here on how to handle them without some official rulings.

The situation that's clearly taboo is picking up clues en passant by ducking into and out of locations during movement.

Sure. The last one is absolutely taboo. Clues are the most important part of the game. The thing that makes you winning even the most desperate battles. So, no way you can "pass by" and grab clues and then go on.

Plus, on (1), I think the general consensus is that you are not allowed to grab any clue upon returning from LiTaS in the Upkeep. Can't remember of anyone here playing this way (but maybe my mind is fading as my youth faded a lot of springs ago).

About (2), there is a lot of mess. Kevin once said one thing, then he changed his mind, then while people worked on the FAQ, they changed it twice. So, if you want to play according to the rules (which can be changed once the FAQ are out, but honestly I don't think we will ever see that day), when you're instructed to move to a new location by an encounter, you don't grab the clues, and you don't fight the monsters.

I personally (and some others here) don't like this and play that if you move, you pick up the clues and fight the monsters, as if you had a small subphase movement + encounter all at once. In any case, if you play that you pick up the clues, I strongly encourage you to play also the "have to deal with monsters" part, so that there is a sort of balance.


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#17 eiterorm

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:40 AM

Julia said:

I personally (and some others here) don't like this and play that if you move, you pick up the clues and fight the monsters, as if you had a small subphase movement + encounter all at once. In any case, if you play that you pick up the clues, I strongly encourage you to play also the "have to deal with monsters" part, so that there is a sort of balance.

 

I concur. If you allow picking up clue tokens, but don't deal with the monsters in the location you're moving to, I'd say you're going against the rules. The rules state that you can only pick up clue tokens where you end your movement, and monsters are also dealt with during the movement phase. So if your interpretation of these specific location encounters is that you get a second, little movement phase during the encounter phase, you would indeed be allowed to pick up the clue tokens, but you would also have to deal with the monsters. Albeit you're, strictly speaking, no longer in the movement phase when you're playing the location cards, the encounters do tell you to move. So this is arguably more a matter of how you interpret the rules and the cards.

 



#18 Thomas Cartwright

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 06:25 AM

Yeah, I like Julia's mini-movement phase idea. I'd further say it's analogous to moving with the deputy's patrol wagon, so you get no movement points to spend and you're not worrying about finding a route to your destination. To really make this consistant with the regular movement rules, are we also saying you can trade with another investigator who's already at your destination? (Sorry, I know this last one opens another can of worms, since there's also disagreement over which phases trading can occur in.) Oh FAQ, where art thou? Maybe we need a stickied thread for unanswered questions like these that will always have to come down to player judgment / house ruling.



#19 Full Doom Track

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 08:49 AM

I can definitely see a case for if the encounter dumps you somewhere, like the Woods for the rest of the turn.  If there are clues there, they will (most likely) be sitting there during the Mythos Phase before movement.  If the encounter brings you back, it's probably best to leave them there.  My line of thinking, and perhaps this is a compromise between the two lines of thought, is that if you go to another location and come back you don't really have time to search thoroughly for clues.  You are simply going to the Woods (as in the example), having another encounter there and coming back.  If you were to stay in the Woods for the rest of the turn (ending your movement), then during the Mythos Phase you can pick up clues.  If a gate opens on you, the Clues are gone since clue token placement comes after gate openings.

 

Obviously, a case can be made for either side.  I know I'm going back on what I said in an earlier post but this is closer to how we play the game.



#20 Thomas Cartwright

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:34 PM

Looks like the just-released FAQ settles this question:

Q: When does an investigator pick up Clue tokens on the
board?
A: Investigators pick up Clue tokens in only two cases:

1. During the Movement Phase, if an investigator
ends his movement in an Arkham location or street area
containing Clue tokens, he picks them up after evading
or combating any monsters in the same location or
area. Investigators cannot pick up Clue tokens from a
location or street area and then continue moving.

2. During the Mythos Phase, when a Clue token is
placed in the same location as one or more investigators,
one of them may immediately pick it up. If they
cannot agree who gets the Clue token, the first player
decides.

Note that investigators do not pick up any Clue tokens
when they are sent to a location with a Clue token during
the Upkeep Phase, the Arkham Encounters Phase, or the
Other World Encounters Phase.






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