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Power characters in standard format


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#1 perthius

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 10:39 PM

So I've been playing standard format joust games for a while now and two characters stand out as REALLY powerful.

 

Brienne of Tarth (ITE) - While Brienne of Tarth is participating in a challenge, opponents cannot trigger effects.

 

She seems especially powerful in a Military challenge on the attack. They can't save, remove characters from the challenge, boost their strength, etc. You can do all these things and play cards like moment of glory or trigger abilities which they can't cancel!

There only seem to be a few decent ways of dealing with her other than with a targetted kill: Milk of the Poppy (and other in house attachments) and Ramsey's Betrothed. Both are pretty easily dealt with themselves as in a Stark deck the stalwart Arya Stark is very popular and Baratheon have great attachment control through Stripped Of Honors.

The only passive effect I can think of that affects the situation is Nestor Royce's ability, which will only help if they have more lords/ladies/nobles than you.

 

Castellan Of The Rock

Lannister have plenty of good kneel effects but this one just seems to have so little cost. For the ability to kneel their strongest non-immune character each turn you don't pay much. He's not understrengthed, gets two icons and in standard there is only one card worth using that hurts allies: Ser Arys Oakheart. He's non-unique so you can run 2 or 3 without having dead cards in hand and if they steal him they generally won't be able to use his powerful ability. So you get a slightly weaker character than otherwise in return for kneeling the character of your choice each turn. This guy burns me on a regular basis.

 

Do you guys find these characters incredibly strong too? What do you use for counters?

 



#2 Rozy

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 11:18 PM

Both of them are very good cards.

I myself use both of them, Brienne in Stark and Castelan in Lanni. They are good when they hit the table, but I would not say they are overpowered. There is planty of ways to get rid of them. Brienne cant participate in all challenges so she can be killed by event in a different one. Castelan has a Limited Responce: so you cannot triger any other limited responce this round. I think that is limited enough.



#3 Old Ben

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 11:38 PM

Castellan of the rock is good and well i rarely play Brienne of Tarth (ITE) however she can be very beneficial. My top ten of the best / "overpowered" if you like,  standard charachters : 

  1. Drogon (ITE)
  2. Tywin Lannister (ahoth)
  3. Eddard Stark (5KE) 
  4. Dagmer Cleftjaw (talons)
  5. Timett, son of Timett (talons)
  6. Illy Payne (Promotion)
  7. Ser Davos Seaworth (5KE) 
  8. Arya Stark (5KE) 
  9. Viserion (5KE) 
  10. shared (Robb, Stannis, Cersei, Daeny : all 5KE)   

It´s in my opinion usually very hard for some standard decks today to find a counter strategy against a deck that either works with burn as a permanent terminal effect (center of the deck Drogon ITE and multiple saves for Drogon)  and against a kneel deck with Tywin (and multiple saves).



#4 Moneylender

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 12:33 AM

Yeah the castellan is really gamewinning sometimes. It is really helpful to run a few attachments, as he has the "a character without attachments" restriction.

(which a lot of powerfull effects have right now)

 

What I´m missing to this point is the TalonsEd Queen of Thorns. Often when she hits the table you can´t do anything unless you can trigger two effects worth canceling in one round. Which is not very often in my experience.



#5 Seznal

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 09:51 PM

Ghost of Highheart

Darkstar (ITLP)

Myrcella (5 Kings)

 

are also very useful

 



#6 Rozy

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 01:59 AM

I dont thing that Ghost of High Heart isnt that overpowered, since they can draw a card after you discard one from their hand. Somethimes happend that they got better card then the one I just discarded.

On the other hand I think that Viserion (ITE) is very powerfull, it is very dangerous in both defence and in attack and when you go unopposed you get 3 power.



#7 Old Ben

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 02:20 AM

Rozy said:

I dont thing that Ghost of High Heart isnt that overpowered, since they can draw a card after you discard one from their hand. Somethimes happend that they got better card then the one I just discarded.

On the other hand I think that Viserion (ITE) is very powerfull, it is very dangerous in both defence and in attack and when you go unopposed you get 3 power.

 

Yep, Viserion (ITE) is unlisted on position no. 11 / 12 or so on my list, i just felt that Viseroin (5kE) is more versatile than the ITE version.

Also i think  the strength of  Ghost of highheart must be defined by a more statistical method. Just a few points: 

  • the handsize and the chance to make a good pick differs from 0 (useless)- X (very helpful) 
  • if the draw cap was reached by your opponent (common in standard) the ghost of high heart is a beast
  • the chance to see your opponents schemings with a relative low engagement on your side is sometimes better than the discard 
  • "cannot be discarded" is a very rare ability these days

Soemone who is better at maths than i am may feel invited to define the true value of the ghost in mathematical terms. ;-) 

    

 



#8 Seznal

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 03:28 AM

Old Ben said:

Rozy said:

 

I dont thing that Ghost of High Heart isnt that overpowered, since they can draw a card after you discard one from their hand. Somethimes happend that they got better card then the one I just discarded.

On the other hand I think that Viserion (ITE) is very powerfull, it is very dangerous in both defence and in attack and when you go unopposed you get 3 power.

 

 

 

Yep, Viserion (ITE) is unlisted on position no. 11 / 12 or so on my list, i just felt that Viseroin (5kE) is more versatile than the ITE version.

Also i think  the strength of  Ghost of highheart must be defined by a more statistical method. Just a few points: 

  • the handsize and the chance to make a good pick differs from 0 (useless)- X (very helpful) 
  • if the draw cap was reached by your opponent (common in standard) the ghost of high heart is a beast
  • the chance to see your opponents schemings with a relative low engagement on your side is sometimes better than the discard 
  • "cannot be discarded" is a very rare ability these days

Soemone who is better at maths than i am may feel invited to define the true value of the ghost in mathematical terms. ;-) 

    

 

 

It's an Control Card so it looks not so impressive like Viserion (ITE). GOHH has also nice synergies with other cards like Shield Island or Locked in a tower. Only Tagaryen is not his friend.  I have seen that the card was discussed already on tzumainn. For me it's a 5.

 



#9 Stag Lord

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 03:53 AM

I'm still not totally sold on Viserion 5K - though he is damn good. I can't pass up the game breaker that is Viserion ITE, especially with dupes and PTT? to protect him. And 5K Rhaegal (my favorite of the 5K dragons) to stand him.

Ser Davos is definteily on my list. 5K Robb is close to the top - I think the scariest of Kings.

Myrcella for sure.

I can't name enough scary Lannister cards - all the ones you guys brought up are excellent.

Lte me add Veteran looters - who have gotten SO mcuh better now that First Snow is gone - and they were already A list carsd to start with. Greyjoy mill in Standard is pretty darn nasty right now.

Great thread! .



#10 Rozy

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 04:19 AM

And what about Maester Wendamyr (AHoT), he is a nightmare for every kill focused deck. His reusable save with 2 inf standing ability is great. This one was a real pain in my *** when I play Stark and could not kill a damn thing :(



#11 Old Ben

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 10:58 PM

I agree Maester Wendamyr is a nightmare for most of the dedicated Stark kill decks. And he´s good against other houses too. However he´s more or less a silver bullet against Stark kill and wouldn´t do much against Targaryen burn. Lanni kneel also helps to deal with him.

I wouldn´t rank him that high, even if he´s good. I think most of the top rank spaces should be preserved for charachters with global effects (like Drogon, Tywin, Payne, Dagmer, Timmet)  and extra ordinary fire power (like Eddard, Davos ...).    

 



#12 Stag Lord

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 04:43 AM

Ben - I'm really suprised you have Dagmer ranked ahead of Davos, Arya and Payne (!) Granted - he's got that global effect, but plenty of greyjoys have stealth anyway and the House has other stealth realted tricks to boot - i dunno.

He never posed particular problems for me - but maybe psot winter rotation, he has becoem more of a staple. apart from balck friday, Greyjoy took a pretty big hit around here.  Still, htere have always seemed to be more important targets to Milk or Kill than Dagmer. Why the respect?



#13 Rozy

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 04:43 AM

From all the lists here it seems that Martell has no power characters or at least not in the top 10. For me Myrcella is very good but I would not put her in the top ten eighter. Do you think of any good characters for Martell.

I have to say that generaly there has always been a good Red Viper and Aero Hotah. (from what I remember - meaning WNE and younger)



#14 Stag Lord

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 06:59 AM

ITE Arianne (who is, in fact, ITE - funny, I never noticed that) is probably top ten or top 15.

Drawstar is, and always has been in my Top Ten characters. Myrcella might be Top Ten too - she makes a LOT of my decks.

The current versions of Viper and Hotah are solvable and don't worry me over much.



#15 Old Ben

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 11:25 AM

Stag Lord said:

Ben - I'm really suprised you have Dagmer ranked ahead of Davos, Arya and Payne (!) Granted - he's got that global effect, but plenty of greyjoys have stealth anyway and the House has other stealth realted tricks to boot - i dunno.

He never posed particular problems for me - but maybe psot winter rotation, he has becoem more of a staple. apart from balck friday, Greyjoy took a pretty big hit around here.  Still, htere have always seemed to be more important targets to Milk or Kill than Dagmer. Why the respect?

Well like always, everything started with a fun deck back in WED time, Aegon Targaryen had a nice theme deck "Euron is looking for his bride" (-Dany of course), so we had a Greyjoy deck with the dragons (especially ITE Drogon). In one melee game that situation happened when both Dagmer and Drogon hit the table totally destroying every players charachter base. That was the first time i paid some more respect to Dagmer. Nowadays we have the experience in our local game group that war crests and stealth and cards like e.g. crows nest work good together. You usually don´t need the -X penalties with Dagmer -1 or -2 strength to all non-stealth charachters is usually enough to dominate the challenge phase. 

Since Greyjoy hasn´t got that much viable (imo) charachter control these days like they used to have i think he´s probably the best Greyjoy charachter today. I sometimes wonder if there was a circle of anti-agenda planned since Dagmer seems to bear the same restrictions as Tywin Lannister (ahothorns).

I also agree about the unique Martell charachter discussion, they don´t seem to have a´n outstanding charachter at the moment, Drawstar, Myrcella and Arianne (ITE) are close to the top but finally don´t seem to make the cut. Red Viper (WED) would have easily made the top 3, but the current Vipers are just a shadow of the older versions. 

   



#16 Stag Lord

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 03:28 AM

I'll grant that he is really strong - and maybe the best unique Greyjoy has at the moment. (I am partial to ITE Victarion though he uses claim replacement to steal lcaotions)  I just think that he misses the Top Ten cut - and certainly comes in behind Ilyn and his constant kill effect, Araya and her repeatable kill effect and Davos - well, I am aprtial to Baratheon. His STr 2 makes him vulnerable, but I still think he hits the tabel with more impact than Dagmer.

Greyjoy stealth and resource denial is a very fun and competitve strategy in Standard. I think they lost a lot of their rush cards when winter went, and I am not sure how well the Kings of Salt and Rock deck works now - but of all the Houses, they are best positioned to deal with some of those nasty, nasty locations that have been released recently.



#17 Old Ben

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 06:15 AM

The 2 strength on Davos and Illyn and the lack of saves in the houses Baratheon and Lannister (compared to Greyjoy) are my main reasons to rank Dagmer higher than these guys, though you are absolutely right Davos could help to create a win situation for you very quickly.

We recently (yesterday evening) found out that the 5KE agendas became harder to play. That´s because you will usually need the kingdom locations and it´s way too easy to discard a kingdom location with one of the bandits from the refugees of war cp. It was somehow near to a negative play experiences, a river bandit (and probably and Iron throne or Sally Saan) on turn one and a second one on turn two and it turns out to be too easy to take down those locations -also there is nothing you can do about it in fact, because it´s a passive effect.

Any similiar experiences? I´m inclinéd to rank the river bandit and it´s comrades in the (standard) top 5 after these playing experiences.



#18 Rozy

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 11:07 PM

Stag Lord said:

Greyjoy stealth and resource denial is a very fun and competitve strategy in Standard. I think they lost a lot of their rush cards when winter went, and I am not sure how well the Kings of Salt and Rock deck works now - but of all the Houses, they are best positioned to deal with some of those nasty, nasty locations that have been released recently.

You are right that with the WED rotated Greyjoy lost a lot of good cards, but same as the other Houses. But I cant imagine them when ITE block rotates. Now they have solid save and unopposed strategy they can build. Save with Wendamyr, Zealous Deckhand and some events like Paying the iron price, that can be very nasty. Or unopposed with Veteran Looters, Wex Pyke and others like Euron with Naval support and Hooked Trident. But with ITE out, they loose all this. They dont have a good strategy through 5KE. They have almost no warships. They are doomed.



#19 Stag Lord

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 04:16 AM

Hmmmm.

Alhtough i agree that this summer's rotation seems potetnially fatal to Greyjoy (and Martell) barring some sort of reprint or limited starter set for the two - I don't think thsi past rotation hit the otehr Hosues as hard as it did Greyjoy.

stark lost Frozen solid and the Barracks - but still ahs plenty of kill and even got the Gates as a sort of Barracks repalcement. Targaryen and Lannister are kind of stronger now than they were at this poitn last year. Baratehon didn't really lsoe a lot with Winter - they are still recovering form teh VED rotation which really set them back. (Although they did lsoe a couple of good stand cards and the last of their really good power rush acceleartros).

However - though GJ can't really pull off the speed rush the way it used to, i think it still has a couple fo competitive builds - and location control and resource denial is certainly one just begging to be exploited.



#20 rings

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 06:41 PM

Well...there is Arya.  And Arya.  Oh, and i hate that Arya chick. 

Seriously, without Jaquen, she is really the only character i despise seeing hit the table.  Everyone else I don't mind.

Oh, and Ghost is a crutch.  Weak sause.  ;)


Oh, King eh?  Very nice...





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