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Tie Defender Values?


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#1 Mako13

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:10 PM

I love the looks of this fighter, so hope it will be included in a future release, soon.

Anyway, in looking at some of its stats on-line, and in reviewing the X-Wing Squadron Point Values, I came up with the following stats for it, and want to see what you all think of them:

Attack = 3

Def (Agility) = 4 [not sure how they derive this value, so just took a stab at it - considered 5, but thought that might be too powerful, and presumed that it would probably be less maneuverable at the higher speeds]

Hull = 3 [supposedly, the same hull armor as a standard Tie]

Shields = 4 or 8, depending upon the source [some rate it as 100 SBD, while others rate it as 200 SBD - perhaps there are two variants]

Speed is rated at 155 MGLT, so just a little better than the A-Wing's 150 MGLT, but better than 50% greater than the speed of an X-Wing.

So, given the above, and based upon my Point Values Formula for Squad Building (see other post for that), it costs either 32, or 52 points, not including upgrades for the 2 x Ion Cannons, Missiles, or the Pilots. 

I'm thinking 2 Points for the Ion Cannons, since they can only be fired to the front (as opposed the the Y-Wings 5 Points for an upgrade for a 360 degree mount), and standard points for the various missiles, or proton torpedoes it can fire.

As for maneuverability, perhaps give it a standard top speed of 7 (again, so it isn't too powerful - still is, but that's why I like it), and give it a rating of 8 as a straight only, Red Maneuver.  Can make easy turns at a speed of 6 and 7; and hard turns, 180 degree turns, easy turns, and straights at speeds of 5 or less.  Supposedly, they are as maneuverable as Tie Fighters.

Anyway, that's my unofficial take on the craft, so let me know what you think of the above.

 

I've even made up a serviceable card for the higher shields rated variant.  Will try to post below, once I've put it on the web.  

It's not quite as nice as some of the cards I've seen from others, and doesn't have the points rating in the lower corner, but it is a serviceable card in the interim (could use a better silhouette in the lower left corner, to match the official, circular ones.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#2 Mako13

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:29 PM

Need to do some polishing, to change the font, etc., but this should be serviceable in the interim.  Left the points cost blank,  in case you want to make up your own cards for various Pilot Skill Ratings.

 

Tie Defender card



#3 Mako13

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:32 PM

See the Reverse Engineered Squad Points posting for my take, and those of others, on how to calculate Build Points for your various Tie Defender Variants and Pilots:

http://www.fantasyfl...=734236&efpag=3



#4 magadizer

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:35 PM

Good grief. a ship with those stats should cost 100 points by itself.


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#5 Surtur

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:19 PM

Jesus. Why is it every custom fighter has insane stats? More realistic:

Attack: 3

Agility: 3

Hull: 4

Shields: 3

Upgrades: Ion cannons (non-turret), topedo

Movement: similar to Tie Advanced

Cost: 40ish



#6 Norsehound

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:23 PM

My approach to stat-ing a TIE Defender would be to focus on the incredible armament and the speed of the fighter. It's essentially a B-Wing, but faster, more fragile, and with a special weapons system hardpoint. In fact it feels so much the counterpart to the B-Wing that I almost wish the B-Wing and TIE/D came in the same wave to fight one another, as opposed to the canonical TIE Bomber which is what will likely appear.

I don't get why people keep assuming Ion cannon fixed mounts must be an exception. Read the upgrade card- the card itself is an exception to the turret rule. If you make a turret subsystem by default it will fire in the forward arc unless you specify otherwise in the text. Basically the gun upgrade provides an alternate attack option for your fighter. So the NK-3 ion cannons will fire the same blue bolts the Assault Gunboats will and cause an ion cannon hit, but there would be no discriptions allowing it to fire outside of its firing arc.

I guess everyone is afraid of fighters with these alternate gun upgrades mounting ion cannon turrets. Well, I never recall seeing "cluster" or "assault missiles" in Star Wars lore.

So I expect something like the (hopefully future) TIE Avenger, but with the abilty to mount fixed ion cannons, a missile hardpoint or two, and if FFG is feeling generous another upgrade mount for Tractor beams and jammers we all loved from TIE fighter. Named pilots would probably be Stele and Vader again since they are the most significant pilots to fly TIE/Ds (the alternatives would be Jendon and Yorr, pilots from Onyx squadron). Generic would be Onyx squadron pilot.

And yes they'd be pointed higher than rebel fighters. I wouldn't be surprised if the Rebel-imperial ratio would be reversed in the case of TIE/Ds and Missile boats: Two rebel fighters would equal an advanced Imperial fighter. This is not a surprise when the Empire's mighty budget is poured into making the greatest starfighter ever designed.

So essentially:

Onyx Squadron Pilot
Initiative 5 (Elite pilots flew these ships)

Attack: 3

Dodge: 4

Hull: 3

Shields: 3

Focus, Barrel Roll, Boost, Lock-on

(Equipment, Missile, Missile, turret)

All speed 1 manuvers, straight and gentle curve 2s would be green. The only reds would be Immelmans (Or Koiograns or whatever they call it).
 


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#7 Surtur

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:09 PM

4 agility is ridiculously high. At that point the only thing that could consistently hit them is Wedge. It's just unprecedented for the firepower currently out there.



#8 Mako13

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:13 PM

Surtur, I didn't make up the stats in Star Wars, I'm just proposing them as a reasonable value for the Tie Defender in X-Wing, based upon comparisons with the other fighters.

I got them on-line, when looking up the values from other games, and published sources on the net, for the Star Wars universe.  See the details below.

Clearly, the Tie Defender is the best space superiority fighter of its day!

The Tie-D has a shield rating of either 100, or 200, depending upon which source you choose to accept.  200 for the source below, and which jives with making it 5x the cost of a standard Tie Fighter, in conjectural X-Wing Squadron points.

By comparison, an X-Wing has a rating of 50 SBD (2 shield points in X-Wing), and the Y-Wing a rating of 75 (3 shield points in X-wing).  Therefore, the Tie Defender will have a shield rating of either 4 points, or 8 points in X-Wing.

I chose the 200 SBD (for 8 shield points), since only a few squadrons were reportedly produced, and that's the first shield rating I came across, originally.  Plus, as mentioned, it helps support the much higher cost value for the Tie Defender, over a standard Tie Fighter.

Supposedly, if I am remembering correctly from what I read, it was a very expensive fighter, with all the latest bells and whistles, making it a true pilot's dream, which would be very difficult to take down.  The 8 shield rating seems to fit for that description, and since the fighters cost 300,0000 credits each to produce, five times the cost of a standard Tie Fighter (60,000 credits).  Given the stats I've proposed for it, my formula for coming up with the points, based upon FFG's ratings for their fighters and pilots, and the info below, it seems I've got it just about spot on.

For further comparison, X-Wings cost 150,000 new, and Y-Wings 135,000 credits new.  The A-Wing, 175,000, and the B-Wing 220,000 credits.  The Tie Advanced 96,000, and the Tie Interceptor120,000 credits.  I haven't looked into how those compare, points cost wise in X-Wing.

Spent some time looking up other stats as well on-line.  Appears the Agility should be bumped up to a 5 also, and giving the A-Wing a rating of 4, since by comparison, the following values apply, in terms of their maneuver ratings: Y-Wing = 50 DPF (or 59); B-Wing = 60; X-Wing and Tie Bomber = 75; A-Wing = 96 (or 100 - 125); Tie = 96; Tie Adv. = 90; Tie Int. = 104; and the Tie Defender = 175, which is far and away better than the others.  So, that would give the following Defense (Agility ratings), e.g. Y-Wing and B-Wing = 1; X-Wing and Tie Bomber = 2; Tie Fighters = 3; A-Wing gets 4 (not sure if that jives with the new, official FFG mini, so we should check on that, but seems likely); and the Tie Defender gets a 5.

Also, as for another restriction, this fighter is only given to the best pilots in the Empire, so will be even more expensive.  It can't be used by rookies, or just average pilots, so that probably restricts it to a pilot with a rating of 7, or better (assuming the top tier of pilots in the Empire), adding further to its cost.

Apparently, they were used in small squadron units of 4 - 6, and were further broken down into pairs of fighters working together against much larger formations of Rebel fighters.  There is mention of two squadrons operating together at one time, but that seems to be rather rare.

The Rebel counter to the Tie Defenders is the Missile Boat.

http://starwars.wiki.../TIE/D_Defender

So, I imagine you can see why I like the fighter.

Packs a real wallop in a small frame, but at high cost.  So, when fielding them, you can have a nice role reversal, with the Rebels having to field hordes of fighters against just a few, elite, Imperial fighter pilots.

 

 

 

 

 



#9 magadizer

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:00 AM

But you can't just apply (made up, arbitrary) stats from other contexts to this game and expect there to be a direct translation.

Where did those stats come from? Are they from another gaming system? If so, then I'm sure that system uses the stats very differently than shield values are used in X-wing. If they are from a book or vehicle guide, then they are truly arbitrary values meant to give a pseudo-technical flavor to the GFFA.

4 agility is already probably breaking the game as it currently is made. 5 is out of the question. Think about it, at range 3 your ship is getting to roll 5 green dice vs. 2 or 3 Rebel red dice. When the Rebel finally does land a hit, it is now going to one of 8 (!) shields. Then they get to still roll 3 red against only 3 green for the Rebels. A single one of these could conceivably mop up any 100 point rebel build, unless luck is not on their side.

What does your source say about the shield rating of the Millennium Falcon? In this game it will only get 5 shield value. So maybe you didn't make up the stats from your source, but as far as translating them into this game, that was your doing. I am surprised that you cannot recognize how far outside the game this ship is.

But if it makes you happy, go ahead and make this. Proxy a TIE advanced and play this versus any competent 100 point Rebel build, on its own. I bet it will do just fine by itself.

At most, this creation should be priced so that you could pair a single Academy TIE with it in a 100 point Imperial build.


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#10 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 03:57 AM

Quoting magadizer, since the quote function is currently breaking my post:
"But you can't just apply (made up, arbitrary) stats from other contexts to this game and expect there to be a direct translation."

***

I can't agree enough with this.

There are two ways to think about introducing new fighters into the game: what's canon, and what makes for a good game. Both are important, and the custom starfighters I've seen so far have completely neglected the game aspects--even when, as in this case, the canon isn't even particularly clear about the TIE/D's technical specs (as the OP is at pains to point out, he can't find a consistent description of the shield strength).

magadizer has already done a fairly thorough job describing the problem, but just to pile on… it would take an average of 10 proton torpedoes to kill a TIE/D as statted out in the image upthread, before considering any defensive actions or upgrades, and with X-wing primary attacks it's 20+ attacks to whittle down those shields and hull.

So it's going to completely dominate any currently conceivable Rebel squad at 100 points; I'm thinking 5 base A-wings with as many concussion missiles as possible would stand the best chance, particularly if they can jam it up, but even then I'd put money on a modified tournament win for the TIE/D. In a mirror match, you can forget about it: I think you'd need multiple Firesprays to even make a dent.

It's not just undercosted. The extreme evade value (in comparison to current evade and weapon values), in combination with the extraordinary shield value, is simply unbalanced at any cost.


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#11 Norsehound

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:38 AM

Giving it 4 agility dice doesn't mean it will always roll 4 saves… though you do kind of have a point surtur.

Oh and Mako… the Missile boat is an Impierial counter to it's own TIE Defender! The TIE/D was stolen and operated by a renegade admiral and it was too effective to just let it run free. Due to losses and not wanting to suffer another chance of having a MB stolen, the MB was retired. Nobody seems to know where the survivors were stored because they were never seen again…



#12 Surtur

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:24 AM

I'm not saying it's going to make all 4 because it doesn't need to. On average it only has to make 2-3 which it can quite well.

MATH INCOMING HEAD FOR THE HILLS!

To hit: 50% with a 12.5% crit chance or one out of 4 hits (1/2)

To evade: 37.5% (3/8)

To hit with target lock: 75% with a 19% (3/4)

To hit with focus: 75% (3/4)

To hit with both: 93.75% (15/16)

To dodge with focus: 62.5% (5/8)

 

So a Tie Defender rolling 4 agility dice on your average roll gets 1.5 evades. We come to this by multiplying the number of dice by the odds that it will succeed. A normal Tie gets 1 and 1/8th or 1.125, just for comparison's sake. An X-Wing attacking gets 1.5 hits. Right off the bat, on average, an X-Wing will never hit a 4 agil Tie Defender. So let's throw in focus, evade and target locks. Using one alone will net your X-Wing 2.25 hits. Using both will get him 2.8125 hits. A Tie defender using evade will get 2.5 evades and using focus will get him 2.5 evades. If he can use them together he will get 3.5 evades. As you can see, if the X-Wing and Tie Defender you proposed ever fought, the amount of resources an x-wing put in has to be greater that the resources the tie defender puts in or you will never hit.



#13 Norsehound

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:56 AM

So 3 is the highest we can ever go with evade dice when creating stats for our fighters? That would make the TIE Fighter the most nimble craft in existance?

I don't disagree with your logic. So a TIE Defender would have an X-Wing attack, a TIE fighter agility, the TIE Advanced's action bar, a tricked out manuver dial, but only decent shields and a decent hull (3 points?)

The B-Wing on the other hand might have an X-Wing attack, a Y-Wing agility, the Y-Wing action bar, a slow manuver dial, but incredible (5) hull and shields as well as the largest upgrade bar seen on a starfighter!

I know I should be thinking of balancing the B-Wing against the TIE bomber… but I can't shake the notion that the B-Wing and TIE/D are better opposites. Especially in this miniatures game when individual stats are watered down in favor of feels. The TIE/D and B-Wing are advanced fighters with lots of weapons. One is fragile and quick and the other is slow and heavy.



#14 magadizer

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:48 AM

Using ShadowJak's regression model for points, this ship should cost 69 points to start with, before you start adding missiles or upgrades. These would add up to another 21 points (if you allow for the forthcoming Assault missiles) or maybe even more, maxing it out at around 80 points.

Even at this cost, it is still overpowered as has been pointed out. At a bare minimum, you could knock down the number of shields to 4 or 5, and take away the evade action as an automatic action option.

I suspect that you could have a ship with 4 evade dice, but it couldn't be paired with the firepower of an X-wing and Y-wing combined, and the Hit points greater than a stock YT-freighter, and maneuverability better than a TIE advanced.


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#15 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:50 AM

Norsehound said:

 

So 3 is the highest we can ever go with evade dice when creating stats for our fighters? That would make the TIE Fighter the most nimble craft in existance?

I don't disagree with your logic. So a TIE Defender would have an X-Wing attack, a TIE fighter agility, the TIE Advanced's action bar, a tricked out manuver dial, but only decent shields and a decent hull (3 points?)

The B-Wing on the other hand might have an X-Wing attack, a Y-Wing agility, the Y-Wing action bar, a slow manuver dial, but incredible (5) hull and shields as well as the largest upgrade bar seen on a starfighter!

I know I should be thinking of balancing the B-Wing against the TIE bomber… but I can't shake the notion that the B-Wing and TIE/D are better opposites. Especially in this miniatures game when individual stats are watered down in favor of feels. The TIE/D and B-Wing are advanced fighters with lots of weapons. One is fragile and quick and the other is slow and heavy.

 

 

The current design space does indeed run from 1 to 3 on evade dice, and from 2 to 4 on attack dice.

FFG could, of course, expand on that design space, but doing so would be dramatically disruptive. The problem with a starfighter with 4 evade dice is that it's prohibitively difficult for any other ship to hit it. To do so, you would need to introduce a ship with 4 or 5 attack dice--which, of course, would then have the effect of trivializing anything with less than 3 defense.

So I suppose the answer is yes, at least in the short to medium term, I would expect FFG to continue playing with that space rather than extending it in ways that would be poorly compatible with existing ships and weapons. More evasive ships or more powerful weapons could be realized through pilot abilities that come "standard"--the way Luke is harder to hit, and Salm and Wedge have extra punch.

It doesn't mean that the TIE fighter is the most nimble craft in existence, but that when a ship's "real" performance is translated into the game's language, a 4 ship would require technology and craftsmanship that isn't currently achievable in mass produced starfighters.

(Alternately, FFG might go to 4 defense dice--on a ship that's fragile to compensate. I still don't think they would do so, but it wouldn't be as much of a problem as a ship with 4 defense and 8 shields.)



#16 magadizer

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:51 AM

Norsehound said:

So 3 is the highest we can ever go with evade dice when creating stats for our fighters? That would make the TIE Fighter the most nimble craft in existance?

I don't disagree with your logic. So a TIE Defender would have an X-Wing attack, a TIE fighter agility, the TIE Advanced's action bar, a tricked out manuver dial, but only decent shields and a decent hull (3 points?)

The B-Wing on the other hand might have an X-Wing attack, a Y-Wing agility, the Y-Wing action bar, a slow manuver dial, but incredible (5) hull and shields as well as the largest upgrade bar seen on a starfighter!

I know I should be thinking of balancing the B-Wing against the TIE bomber… but I can't shake the notion that the B-Wing and TIE/D are better opposites. Especially in this miniatures game when individual stats are watered down in favor of feels. The TIE/D and B-Wing are advanced fighters with lots of weapons. One is fragile and quick and the other is slow and heavy.

Norsehound said:

So 3 is the highest we can ever go with evade dice when creating stats for our fighters? That would make the TIE Fighter the most nimble craft in existance?

I don't disagree with your logic. So a TIE Defender would have an X-Wing attack, a TIE fighter agility, the TIE Advanced's action bar, a tricked out manuver dial, but only decent shields and a decent hull (3 points?)

The B-Wing on the other hand might have an X-Wing attack, a Y-Wing agility, the Y-Wing action bar, a slow manuver dial, but incredible (5) hull and shields as well as the largest upgrade bar seen on a starfighter!

I know I should be thinking of balancing the B-Wing against the TIE bomber… but I can't shake the notion that the B-Wing and TIE/D are better opposites. Especially in this miniatures game when individual stats are watered down in favor of feels. The TIE/D and B-Wing are advanced fighters with lots of weapons. One is fragile and quick and the other is slow and heavy.

The TIE defender is "fragile and quick"? Do I read your post correctly?

If that is the case, then the OP here has got the stats completely wrong. No way are 8 shields "fragile."


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#17 magadizer

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:00 AM

It might be fun to have a ship with 4 evade dice but only 1 hull and 1 shield. It would be a sort of inverse Y-wing. It would often get killed in one shot, but you could almost never get the shot in. 


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#18 Norsehound

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:13 AM

When I mean 'fragile' I'm talking in terms of hull. Compared to other ships it's size (like the B-Wing), the TIE/D isn't much more robust than a normal TIE fighter. It's not armored for punishment like the B-Wing is. It has enough shielding for dogfighting purposes (2? Like an X-Wing?) but when it's unshielded a B-Wing could blow it up with one pass. An egg with a sledgehammer.

In a hypothetical TIE/D v B-Wing match, the B-Wing would be looking to absorb punishment long enough to get the TIE/D in it's sights and hammer it with everything it has. The TIE/D on the other hand would try to take as few hits as possible and stay out of the B-Wing's forward arc. Similar perhaps to the current X v TIE match but with higher firepower values.  Maybe I should amend my comment on the movement dial and allow the B-Wing little punishment when it's making short turns… it's not speedy but it can turn pretty well. The TIE/D on the other hand, being faster than the TIE/LN, would have fewer 1 manuvers and will be frequently overshooting the B-Wing.

I wonder if that 'evade 4, 1 hull 1 shield' would work for the T-Wing… I'd have to fly against them again to know how obnoxious they were in that regard. They were supposed to replace A-Wings but never did…. maybe because they were too fragile?



#19 Mako13

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 10:34 AM

So, after comments from others, and comparisons to other fighters and ships in Wave 2, here's my proposal for the Tie Defender:

Attack = 3

Defense = 4

Hull = 4 (since shields need to be dumbed down to make the fighter playable with others in the game, this stat gets a bump.  With a 20 RU hull, its armor is as robust as an X-Wings, which has a rating of 3.  Increasing its Hull rating of 4, to account for the loss of half of what its shield rating should be seems a reasonable alternative, at least to me)

Shields = 4

The combined Hull and Shield rating above gives it about 60% of the protection of the Millenium Falcon, in both X-Wing, and from stats found on the internet, in independent sources.

Clearly, with those ratings, it is a formidable space superiority fighter.

Points costs, without upgrades is 33, not including any special weapons, abilities, or even a pilot.

Only Skill 7 pilots, or above may use this fighter, making the true basic fighter cost 40 - 42, depending upon the pilots' skill (e.g. 7 - 9).

Fixed forward Ion Cannons cost 2 points (5 for the Y-Wing with a 360 degree arc, so 2 points for the 90 degree forward arc seems reasonable to me).

Other special weapons costs and skills are per those available to the Empire (and Proton Torps of the Rebels).  Can be fitted with Concussion Missiles, or Proton Torpedoes.  Can also be fitted with a Tractor Beam (see below).

Not sure on the points cost, or ability of the Tractor Beam, but suggest we try Range 2 (supposedly its range is limited), can only be used for a short time before recharging (two turns, perhaps, and then off for 2 turns, before use again?), permits the Tie-D to keep the targeted starfighter from moving at all in the next two turns (if hit, the targeted spacefighter must remain in place - 75% chance of that happening, e.g. to be on target with the tractor beam, and no chance for the targeted vessel to evade (simplistic rules option).  Or, optionally, 3 x attempts to use it [using 3 Red Attack Dice - everything but blanks work], and targeted fighter gets to roll Evade dice, as usual, to try to keep from being targeted.  Once entrapped, no further evade rolls are permitted).  Does no permanent damage to a target.  Use of the Tractor Beam doesn't count as an action, so the Tie Defender may also fire on the fighter targeted by the Tractor Beam, regardless of whether it is effective, or not.  Due to the power required to employ the Tractor Beam, power to the Tie Defender's shields is reduced by Two Points, when it is in use.  Points cost = 5, so similar to the Ion Cannon for the Rebels. 

So, for 50 points, you can produce a nice, heavily armed fighter.  That works well, since they usually work in pairs, so two for a 100 point force should be interesting vs. what the Rebels can field against it.

Clearly, the Tie Defender is the ultimate space superiority fighter of its time.



#20 magadizer

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:36 AM

Sorry, but the ship should still be more points for that level of stats. A skill 1 Pilot of this ship should be 49 points before upgrades. A skill 7 pilot should be 55 points before upgrades.

Evade 4 plus that many hull/shield points is still super-powered. Go ahead and try it out in a few games, using your cost value, and please report back how it does.

You are trying to create the equivalent of the POW switch in Mario Brothers, that kills all the enemies on the screen automatically at once. If that's fun for you, then have a good time. I seriously disagree with your method of determining the point value for the ships. It is far too arbitrary and subjective.


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