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Pistol and Hand Weapon - Still not Sure how they work


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#1 furashgf

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:59 PM

I posted this in Only War (even though I haven't seen it) because it's the latest version of the core rule set.

So, a character has a pistol, and a meele weapon, and they're skilled/trained in both:

1. How does the pistol work in combat? Is it only usable at opponents you're not engaged with? An opponent closing with you. In meele (the guy's 2 feet away but you're trading blows. What bonuses/penalties apply?

2. Assuming you have 1 worked out, or they just have two meele or two ranged weapons, can they make two attacks? They shouldn't be able to, because while they're both ½ actions, but you can't make the same 2 ½ actions in your turn. I'm sure it works, but not how.

Thank you in advance for your assistance. 



#2 Alekzanter

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 03:36 AM

furashgf said:

 

I posted this in Only War (even though I haven't seen it) because it's the latest version of the core rule set.

So, a character has a pistol, and a meele weapon, and they're skilled/trained in both:

1. How does the pistol work in combat? Is it only usable at opponents you're not engaged with? An opponent closing with you. In meele (the guy's 2 feet away but you're trading blows. What bonuses/penalties apply?

2. Assuming you have 1 worked out, or they just have two meele or two ranged weapons, can they make two attacks? They shouldn't be able to, because while they're both ½ actions, but you can't make the same 2 ½ actions in your turn. I'm sure it works, but not how.

Thank you in advance for your assistance. 

 

 

A Character without Two-Weapon Wielder may use a pistol and a melee weapon in close combat, but must chose which weapon he/she will attack with each Turn. As an Example, I have an Arbitrator that uses a Hecutor 9/5 auto-pistol in his dominant hand (meaning he isn't penalized on his BS Test), and uses a Sword in his non-dominant hand. Even though the Hecutor is capable of firing on Semi and Auto, he is only allowed a Standard (single) Attack, as per RAW. Normally, he would receive a -20 penalty to his WS Test if he attacked with the Sword, because he would be making the attack with his non-dominant hand, but as he only uses it to Parry, and parrying is not an Attack, he does not suffer that penalty, and in fact receives +10 to his WS Test when parrying because the Sword is Balanced.

To use both weapons in melee, meaning that to attack with both weapons in the same Turn, this same Arbitrator would have to have both Two-Weapon Wielder Melee and Ballistic. There are penalties to these attacks, which are then further mitigated by the Ambidextrous Talent. The best case scenario (as far as I can tell) results in a +/-0 to the WS/BS Test with his dominant hand and a -10  WS/BS Test with his non-dominant hand. The Talent Two-Weapon Wielder is the key. In every publication (through to Black Crusade) the wording of Multiple Attack Action, or Two Weapon Fighting, clearly satates the requirement/prerequisite of Two-Weapon Wielder. If a PC specializes in one over the other (say close combat over ranged combat) he/she would likely only choose one of the two Talents that is most appropriate to his/her fighting style.

As far as how the Pistol works in Melee combat…
A PC would make a Standard Attack (single shot), without the bonuses for being at Point Blank Range (RAW). It may be used against opponents you are engeaged in melee with. One would assume it could also be used against opponents at range, but to do so you'd have to have some serious hanging brass to ignore the goon who's in your face. That being said, you could conceivably shoot at an attacker closing with you while you are engaged by an opponent, thus possibly reducing combat modifiers of the opposition such as Outnumbering, Double Team, etc. As I indicated earlier, using a Pistol in close combat does not benefit from the Point Blank Range modifier. Your use of "feet" as a measurement confusues me a bit, even though I'm an American, because the Core Rules sytems of each games defines ranges in meters, but if an opponent were two feet away (most of a meter), you would not necessarilly be close enough to trade physical blows (unless you and/or the GM have determined that range is close enough to do so) and you would benefit from the +30 PBR modifier (assuming your PC's Turn comes in the initiative order before the goon engages him/her).

All of the above should make your second question moot.

Something that others have considered is the possibility to Parry ranged attacks that have been made in melee. The idea being you're shoving the Pistol away from you…kind of like Gun Katta in the movie Equilibrium. As a GM, I'd allow it, though I'd be inclined to say the Balanced Quality is not applicable as the attack is coming from such a close-in origin. Shields? I'd give the Defensive bonus to Parrying a shot in melee with a shield. It's never really come up in our games, but I have thought about it, just in case. Of course a PC could always Dodge, but if his/her Parry chances are better…Then, of course, there is the ongoing debate on other forums regarding the inconsistancies of shield mechanics.
This should not be confuse with the Deflect Shot (Talent), which allows PCs to deflect incoming missiles that are from a Primitive Ranged Weapon. Seems a useless Talent, as rarely are you going to be facing a concentrated group of adversaries using bows, crossbows, slings or atlatls, and even if you are they're not likely to cause any Damage…unless you're unfortunate enough to have only Primitive Armour.
(I'm fully aware that the Primitive Quality of weapons and armour have been reworked for Black Crusade and Only War, but still, who's likely to be facing off against a horde of javelin hucking Orks?)

But to go further with Two-Weapon Wielder…
If a PC has Swift/Lightning Attack (Talent) and Two-Weapon Wielder, the Swift/Lightning Attack Action may ony be made with one of the two (melee) weapons used by the PC (or NPC, for that matter). The PC is then allowed a single attack (Standard Attack) with the "off-hand" weapon. But the crux of the Multiple Attack Action, or Two Weapon Fighting, is the prerequisite of Two-Weapon Wielder (Talent). Without that, you're making a single attack, with one hand or the other, and only a fool (or someone who's had their dominant arm hacked off) would make an attack with their non-dominant hand.

This is how I and my group, along with many references to the FFG RPG forums, have come to understand the mechanics of this facet of combat. Hope this helps.



#3 furashgf

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:48 AM

Thank you for that excellent explanation. Based on my other thread about Servitors, I will not make you one as a result of your cogent response. Anyway, I don't know how to make them so you'd probably just have to wear a cardboard box with arm holes and tinfoil on it and look depressed.



#4 furashgf

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:51 AM

Thank you for that excellent explanation. Based on my other thread about Servitors, I will not make you one as a result of your cogent response. Anyway, I don't know how to make them so you'd probably just have to wear a cardboard box with arm holes and tinfoil on it and look depressed.



#5 .113

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:30 AM

furashgf said:

I posted this in Only War (even though I haven't seen it) because it's the latest version of the core rule set.

So, a character has a pistol, and a meele weapon, and they're skilled/trained in both:

1. How does the pistol work in combat? Is it only usable at opponents you're not engaged with? An opponent closing with you. In meele (the guy's 2 feet away but you're trading blows. What bonuses/penalties apply?

2. Assuming you have 1 worked out, or they just have two meele or two ranged weapons, can they make two attacks? They shouldn't be able to, because while they're both ½ actions, but you can't make the same 2 ½ actions in your turn. I'm sure it works, but not how.

Thank you in advance for your assistance. 



#6 .113

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:53 AM

couldnt reply earlier but here goes.

in only war you can use pistols in melee while also using it's different rates of fire, yes, that means you can use full or semi auto in close combat. if you have two pistols you can even shoot one using semi and the other as full auto if you feel like it, or any other combination. Go nuts.

 

Oh, and using two weapon fighting allows you to attack with both weapons, be they two melee, two ranged or one of each (but you need the appropriate two weapon fighting talents) as part of the same action.






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