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Can 3 Rebs beat 6+ imperial swarms?


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#1 chris cook

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:14 PM

Trying to get ready for the Kessel Run.  First off… can 3 Reb ships (wedge  Dutch and rookie) survive 6 or more ties?  I have lost at least 5 x in a row vs my son and his named pilot squad.  Has anyone beaten the swarm (on a consistant basis) with only 3 rebs.

New Idea, but have not played it yet. Has anyone else tried this?

Wedge- marks and proton

Luke- r2 f2  (i dont see him getting hit much, maybe lead with him

Dutch- r5  ion and proton

 

  Chris



#2 Ixamos

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:26 PM

I have lost to TIEs swarm many times piloting 3 named Rebel pilot squad. Basically my opponent has been using Vader (Swarm Tactics), Howlrunner (Swarm Tactics), Obsidian Pilot, Academy Pilot x3. I just unable to defeat that Imperial squad.



#3 ScottieATF

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:03 PM

In short yes.  I've won something like 25 games at this point running three ship builds against Imp builds of 6-7 ships, with 2 loses. 

To be honest your squad likely will not work, because you have no way to keep your opponent off Wedge and Dutch.



#4 Theterrainstudio

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:14 PM

Scottie can you share your build



#5 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:25 PM

ScottieATF said:

In short yes.  I've won something like 25 games at this point running three ship builds against Imp builds of 6-7 ships, with 2 loses. 

To be honest your squad likely will not work, because you have no way to keep your opponent off Wedge and Dutch.

I'm curious, too (and feeling pessimistic about Rebels in general, at the moment). I've only played a handful of games, but the TIE swarm looks hard to beat: the massive initial volley of attacks is usually enough to pick off a Rebel ship. Even if you manage to trade, that leaves you fighting 83 points of TIEs with 66 points of Rebel fighters.

How do you make it work?



#6 CaptainRook

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 06:33 PM

It's 3 Wedges, each with Expert Handling, R2D2 and Assault Missiles.  I'm sorry, but I know 3 Rebel ships can beat the OcTIEpus, yet I'm not buying that string of victories.  Not unless their opponent has been forgetting to shoot every single turn, or has their firing arc on backwards.  


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#7 Ixamos

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 06:41 PM

U can also try this build against those TIEs swarm. Here's the list

Wedge (R2 Astromech, ST, PT)
Biggs (R2F2)
Horton (R2 Astromech, Ion Cannon, PT)

I have not tried this build, well not yet at least. It looks good on paper. I am not a huge fan of 3 ships Rebels. Give it a try and let us know how it goes.



#8 CaptainRook

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 06:54 PM

Ixamos said:

 

U can also try this build against those TIEs swarm. Here's the list

Wedge (R2 Astromech, ST, PT)
Biggs (R2F2)
Horton (R2 Astromech, Ion Cannon, PT)

I have not tried this build, well not yet at least. It looks good on paper. I am not a huge fan of 3 ships Rebels. Give it a try and let us know how it goes.

 

 

Fairly solid build, but I'd highly recommend an R5 Astromech for Horton instead of an R2.  I'm not sure Swarm Tactics is entirely necessary when all three have above average Pilot Skills, but I'm a firm believer that Wedge without Expert Handling just isn't Wedge.  I hate to be critical of someone else's list, but under scrutiny those are the only two points of contention I would have with fielding yours.  

 


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#9 Ixamos

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 06:58 PM

CaptainRook said:

 

Ixamos said:

 

U can also try this build against those TIEs swarm. Here's the list

Wedge (R2 Astromech, ST, PT)
Biggs (R2F2)
Horton (R2 Astromech, Ion Cannon, PT)

I have not tried this build, well not yet at least. It looks good on paper. I am not a huge fan of 3 ships Rebels. Give it a try and let us know how it goes.

 

 

Fairly solid build, but I'd highly recommend an R5 Astromech for Horton instead of an R2.  I'm not sure Swarm Tactics is entirely necessary when all three have above average Pilot Skills, but I'm a firm believer that Wedge without Expert Handling just isn't Wedge.  I hate to be critical of someone else's list, but under scrutiny those are the only two points of contention I would have with fielding yours.  

 

 

 

I prefer to use Swarm Tactics since mostly all of my Rebel squad list has around 98-99 points. I like to have the initiative and always prefers to shoot first with both my X-Wings, that's why I use Swarm Tactics.



#10 ScottieATF

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:38 PM

CaptainRook said:

It's 3 Wedges, each with Expert Handling, R2D2 and Assault Missiles.  I'm sorry, but I know 3 Rebel ships can beat the OcTIEpus, yet I'm not buying that string of victories.  Not unless their opponent has been forgetting to shoot every single turn, or has their firing arc on backwards.  

Honestly, if you want to go check on boardgamegeek you'll see more exact tallies in early threads when I only had 10 games in, 15, etc.  I'm not pulling numbers out of thin air here and have been keeping track of my games played since picking up the game at Gencon.   It's funny telling my main 5-6 opponents that apparently they are the only Imp players that can't buy a win.  Alot of it should be attributed to the fact that I've played 34 games, nearly 3 times as many as other friends who are likely still more experienced then most people at this new game.  I was running tested and tweaked squadrons up against well untested and untweaked squadrons, and thus should be coming out ahead.

The best build I've settled on for 3 ships (and I've tried most available including 2 Y-wings, which kinda can work if you can get some Ion drifts into asteriods)

Wedge- Protons, Droid, Elite Upgrade

Biggs- R2F2

Horton- Protons, Ions, Droid

I've been switching around droids and elite upgrades for Wedge alot.  Sometimes he gets R2D2, more often generic R2.  I've tried Swarm Tactics, I think Expert Handling wins out.  Sometimes Horton gets two Protons, which is overkill in reality.

I stretch the board as much as possible.  With Wedge and Horton two Protons will kill a TiE in the 2nd RD at RNG 3, and I set it up so Biggs gets 4-5 agility against the varies shots he's forced to take.  Usually that leaves him untouched.  From there I want to get in close with Wedge, keep Biggs a bit back, and score another kill in RD 3.  If I can get 3 kills before Wedge actually gets attacked then I'm golden.  Horton and Wedge can take most 3-4 TiE groups.  Horton locks down anyone in bad position (drifting towards an asteriod) or stressed.  Without being able to Evade, Wedge will deal the final 2 damage easily.

Do I think that is the best 3 ship build?  No I think Dutch for Horton and Swarm Tactics on Wedge may be the overall better 3 ship build, as it allows Biggs to be more offensive.  I think 3 ship builds struggle in list building because of the lack of upgrades to fill points.

So question my tallies all you want, but I have no reason to inflate my numbers to prove my point.  Nor do my opponents have to be dumb/blind,  they play Warmachine at to high of a level to qualify on either account.   And I stand by exactly what I said.

 



#11 Stormtrooper721

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:13 AM

Forget three Rebel Starfighters at 100 points - go for five Rebel Starfighters:

Rebel Swarm:
3 Rookie X-Wings and 2 Gold Squadron Y-Wings = 99 points

You'll actually generally outgun the six-TIE swarm and you'll have a lot more shields. Go in slow to keep the TIEs in front of your guns as long as possible.


The 731st Imperial Flight School - "The Vornskrs" - 1 TIE Advanced, 3 TIE Interceptors, 10 TIE Fighters

23 Victories, 1 Defeat, 0 Draws - 69 kills versus 46 losses


#12 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:25 AM

ScottieATF said:

The best build I've settled on for 3 ships (and I've tried most available including 2 Y-wings, which kinda can work if you can get some Ion drifts into asteriods)

Wedge- Protons, Droid, Elite Upgrade

Biggs- R2F2

Horton- Protons, Ions, Droid

I've been switching around droids and elite upgrades for Wedge alot.  Sometimes he gets R2D2, more often generic R2.  I've tried Swarm Tactics, I think Expert Handling wins out.  Sometimes Horton gets two Protons, which is overkill in reality.

I stretch the board as much as possible.  With Wedge and Horton two Protons will kill a TiE in the 2nd RD at RNG 3, and I set it up so Biggs gets 4-5 agility against the varies shots he's forced to take.  Usually that leaves him untouched.  From there I want to get in close with Wedge, keep Biggs a bit back, and score another kill in RD 3.  If I can get 3 kills before Wedge actually gets attacked then I'm golden.  Horton and Wedge can take most 3-4 TiE groups.  Horton locks down anyone in bad position (drifting towards an asteriod) or stressed.  Without being able to Evade, Wedge will deal the final 2 damage easily.

Do I think that is the best 3 ship build?  No I think Dutch for Horton and Swarm Tactics on Wedge may be the overall better 3 ship build, as it allows Biggs to be more offensive.  I think 3 ship builds struggle in list building because of the lack of upgrades to fill points.

Good to hear, actually: I've been planning a very similar list for my next outing as the Rebels. My only bit of alarm comes with the idea that Wedge and [Y-wing pilot] will kill a TIE in the first engagement; that's a fairly good bet, but it does rely on luck--that is, assuming you have a bit of good luck, or that your opponent doesn't.



#13 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:30 AM

Stormtrooper721 said:

Forget three Rebel Starfighters at 100 points - go for five Rebel Starfighters:

Rebel Swarm:
3 Rookie X-Wings and 2 Gold Squadron Y-Wings = 99 points

You'll actually generally outgun the six-TIE swarm and you'll have a lot more shields. Go in slow to keep the TIEs in front of your guns as long as possible.

I've considered that list (and have enough ships to run it), but I'm deeply skeptical about the utility of Y-wings without ion cannons. If you consider Gold Squadron as 23-point fighters, rather than 18 points, then there's no five-ship Rebel list.

I'd even consider trying that squad with a generic R2 or R5 on each Y-wing--but there's not even space for that. I think the Y-wings are highly unlikely to earn the points back if you deploy them naked.



#14 Duraham

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:46 AM

I use a fairly similiar build:

 

Luke + R2D2 + marksmanship

Biggs + R2F2

Horton + torps + ionC + R5D8 (the healing one, in case I got the name wrong)

 

it's slightly less offensive than the Wedge ver, but at least you get to stay a bit longer, and either Luke or Horton can fly solo to get some pressure off Biggs. I've had Biggs actually survive for more than the initial 3 turns when I split Luke away from the other pair, and even Horton can handle himself as his ability allows you to spend the action on fixing your ship instead.



#15 chris cook

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:13 AM

How do you fly 3 wedges?



#16 ScottieATF

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:50 AM

Vorpal Sword said:

ScottieATF said:

 

The best build I've settled on for 3 ships (and I've tried most available including 2 Y-wings, which kinda can work if you can get some Ion drifts into asteriods)

Wedge- Protons, Droid, Elite Upgrade

Biggs- R2F2

Horton- Protons, Ions, Droid

I've been switching around droids and elite upgrades for Wedge alot.  Sometimes he gets R2D2, more often generic R2.  I've tried Swarm Tactics, I think Expert Handling wins out.  Sometimes Horton gets two Protons, which is overkill in reality.

I stretch the board as much as possible.  With Wedge and Horton two Protons will kill a TiE in the 2nd RD at RNG 3, and I set it up so Biggs gets 4-5 agility against the varies shots he's forced to take.  Usually that leaves him untouched.  From there I want to get in close with Wedge, keep Biggs a bit back, and score another kill in RD 3.  If I can get 3 kills before Wedge actually gets attacked then I'm golden.  Horton and Wedge can take most 3-4 TiE groups.  Horton locks down anyone in bad position (drifting towards an asteriod) or stressed.  Without being able to Evade, Wedge will deal the final 2 damage easily.

Do I think that is the best 3 ship build?  No I think Dutch for Horton and Swarm Tactics on Wedge may be the overall better 3 ship build, as it allows Biggs to be more offensive.  I think 3 ship builds struggle in list building because of the lack of upgrades to fill points.

 

Good to hear, actually: I've been planning a very similar list for my next outing as the Rebels. My only bit of alarm comes with the idea that Wedge and [Y-wing pilot] will kill a TIE in the first engagement; that's a fairly good bet, but it does rely on luck--that is, assuming you have a bit of good luck, or that your opponent doesn't.

 

Everything relies on luck in this game.  All you can hope to do is take the best odds you can.  Wedge can normally put at least a crit into a TiE with his Proton eating their evade token as well.  Horton is going to give you a near automatic 3-4 hits with his ability, which means the TiE would have to roll out of it's mind to live.  You also if needed have Biggs.  A range 3 shot with no re-roll/focus isn't very likely to yield any damage, but if the TiE survived it is likely down to one so you'd only need to get one damage through.

So to be frank I don't see what to be alarmed about.  It isn't a long shot, it isn't even money, it is a likely outcome.  I've had Wedge completely wiff only to have Horton one shot the TiE.  Your bets are hedged.



#17 ScottieATF

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:52 AM

chris cook said:

How do you fly 3 wedges?

It was a joke.



#18 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:29 AM

ScottieATF said:

Vorpal Sword said:

 

Good to hear, actually: I've been planning a very similar list for my next outing as the Rebels. My only bit of alarm comes with the idea that Wedge and [Y-wing pilot] will kill a TIE in the first engagement; that's a fairly good bet, but it does rely on luck--that is, assuming you have a bit of good luck, or that your opponent doesn't.

 

 

 

Everything relies on luck in this game.  All you can hope to do is take the best odds you can.  Wedge can normally put at least a crit into a TiE with his Proton eating their evade token as well.  Horton is going to give you a near automatic 3-4 hits with his ability, which means the TiE would have to roll out of it's mind to live.  You also if needed have Biggs.  A range 3 shot with no re-roll/focus isn't very likely to yield any damage, but if the TiE survived it is likely down to one so you'd only need to get one damage through.

So to be frank I don't see what to be alarmed about.  It isn't a long shot, it isn't even money, it is a likely outcome.  I've had Wedge completely wiff only to have Horton one shot the TiE.  Your bets are hedged.

Mostly, I think I'm making the mistake of generalizing from a single example: last night I played a 75-point match with kitted-out Wedge + Salm against Vader, Howlrunner, and two Academy Pilots. Wedge and Salm both shot at Howlrunner, and managed two hits between them, both of which were evaded. Then Wedge went down to massed TIE fire.

Anyway, I agree it's the likely result; I went back and did some rough math, and it looks like the expected value even if the TIE takes the Evade action is 2.5 crits and 0.5 hits. Now if only there were a way to reduce the variance…



#19 Hdnggrnchrg

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:38 PM

Stormtrooper721 said:

Forget three Rebel Starfighters at 100 points - go for five Rebel Starfighters:

Rebel Swarm:
3 Rookie X-Wings and 2 Gold Squadron Y-Wings = 99 points

You'll actually generally outgun the six-TIE swarm and you'll have a lot more shields. Go in slow to keep the TIEs in front of your guns as long as possible.

Better idea: 3 X-wings and 2 A-Wings (assuming the formula posted is right).



#20 mrfroggies

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:00 PM

 I run a very similar build to you, and I've won all my games except 1, and that was because of bad piloting on my part.  Biggs was just out of range 3.  At my LGS the Rebels have the winning record so far.  I would say most of us are at similar levels of play.  I would also say that Asteroids favor the rebels.  All of the Imperial wins at my LGS were played on maps that didn't have asteroids.  It tends to spread the Ties out and keeps them from concentrating there fire.






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