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#1 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:43 AM

Is the information in the creatures guide more detailed than the information in 2 editions books?



#2 Emirikol

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:11 AM

SPOILERS

Yes, most certainly it's got really ordinary duplication of 2e text  (only less) and  it's laid out in a ..uh..less than satisfactory way: I'm about to rip this entire product a new one, so avert your eyes if you don't like comprehensive, critical reviews.  Before I start though, I'll say that I'm stuck using this product because the vault makes for longer prep and put-away time just for what should be easy-to reference, inane statistical references (some people love the vault for customizing encounters and I don't mean to take any of that away), but this single product is the epitome of exactly how this license has been mishandled all along.  It's all written in fun sarcasm so please, reader beware:

Table of contents:  Monster fluff page listings with their threat level for section 1.  Their statistical page listings are not here.  From the table of contents, you think you're heading onto a roller coaster ride…but you realize that the safety engineer was drunk that day.

Section 1:  Completely flat, lackluster, stale, reprinted-from-last-edition, not-researched-at-all fluff text for each monster with the listing of their "talent."  (E.g. Cult mutant:  fluff text..then Unwholesome Mutations).  No mention of their special actions from the Tome of Adventure (You know, where it say's something like:  "Profane rites: Cultist".  Their threat level is listed /again./   There is absolutely nothing inspiring about any of the fluff text for these creatures.  There's not one useful bit of information that a GM can take to give him meaning in a game.  The paragraphs are not written in a common format, such as history, "physical description," temperament, and suggested use.  Each one is just kind of sloppily crapped together.

Section 2:  All of the monster actions broken down with the same layout as the players guide.  Each action has a listing like "undead" or "swarm" to send you in the general direction of who would use it..but make sure you've taken off work so you can sit there reading endless lines to try to figure out what the best action for your monster would be…Got all day????  Then enjoy!……..  This part will probably be the only thing in this entire book that will bother most people, because it's like buying a winter coat, and finding out that there's no sleeves..but you can't return it. Did they ever bother to put out a correction for this even though it was the NUMBER ONE THING that we were concerned about?  Heck no!  Cuz they have chosen the route that it isn't important enough! In later products, you can see that this made it onto a "to do" list at a board meeting that ends with "oh, and we almost forgot again..yea, wfrp..oh, in the future find some action suggestion to placate those people"..and that's about it.  It's about as important to them as communicating with their fans on their forums (yes, I'm beating that dead horse again because I enjoy calling them out on this  :)

Section 3:  All monsters listed /again, in stat block lines (like they are in the scenarios) with the Talent listed /again (exactly the same text as in section 1 for the talents).  NO MENTION of their special action cards.    Their threat level is listed A THIRD TIME.  Who the heck laid this thing out?  This is the information section that you need at a quick glance during your games.  Of course, it's not referenced in the index, just in case you need it at a quick glance.

Section 4:  There is a statistical listing Table of all of the monsters /YET AGAIN, but in a big-long table..and guess what's not there!  Right-o!  There's no action summary for the mosnters.. You're still guessing!  It's broken down by creature category, but isn't in alphabetical order.  Want to find the chaos creature you need quickly?  Yea, forget that.  Thankfully, it includes random entries of creatures from the scenarios, and they're mixed randomly into the order too so you don't really know what the f you're looking at here…but it does have a SET icon, which is crucial..oohhh, I cannot tell you how crucial that tidbit of information is..cuz' jeez'''  ohhhh really…no, uhm, WHY THE HECK IS THAT EVEN IMPORTANT?!?!   This table also adds symbolisms instead of abbreviations to the table.  Damage, soak and defense use the ever-so-useful SYMBOLS, rather than Dam. Soak. Def.  Its mixed right in there so that you can't just look at it.. you have to reference these stupid symbols.  Those of us with the guides have those same symbols on the cards..yea, it's crap just to put crap (in my openly ranting opinion).  Its like they got to the end and realized that with the useless, dry empty fluff for each creature, and crammed-up stat blocks they needed to add a couple pages..because "we're missing something..what could it be?  Uhm…uhm…I just had it written down on a post it note to do..uhm..what was it?  was it a ACTION SUMMARY PER MONSTER sir?  NOPE, that's not it!  Let's add ANOTHER redundant table just to fill content instead of making a good product that would be otherwise useful!"

Section 5:  Creature Group sheet Card Summary (each got a paragraph) ,.  E.g. "Greenskins:  Talents tactic x2, Waagh.  Track list, morale text, tracklist. 

Section 6:  Creature guide Master index:  The index lists the FLUFF page number of each creature but not the page number for the actual stats in section 3. It doesn't list the stat block page (which is lost somewhere in the middle of the book between the pointless later stat table summary..and is the actual information you'd be using and needing "at a glance."  Again, who in the heck is in charge here?  Is anyone at the wheel on this product?

Errata:  THe Vampire's Beguile ability is not in the Creature guide, but is a card in the "vault."

Artwork:  The artwork is REHASED scattered everywhere.  There is no picture for each creature.  They just slapped a picture on each page somewhere mixed in with 4-5 creatures that may or may not have any bearing on what you're reading.

 [RANT ON]

This book was evidently put together by uncaring drones (I edited), who seemingly half-attempted it on a saturday night deadline, and headed probably by someone who doesn't even GM this game.  They reproduce threat levels 3 times, reproduce stat block lines 2 times, don't have any of the fluff text ANYWHERE NEAR the statistical text and there's no ACTION CARD-PER-CREATURE summary anywhere to be found.  It's no wonder this game has had trouble getting off the ground and it just goes to show that FFG has done a terrible job with a game system that deserved love.  FFG's designers and leaders effectively and single-handedly killed off their own product WFRP with their mishandling of this line and this product is one of the most lamented bits of evidence submitted on that fact (you'll see many a review in this regard).[rant off]

 [rant back on] I mean, WThhhhh?  This was supposedly in the "heydays" of this game, yet it was together in total slipshod, half-eyeball, not-checked fashion.  When a flagship resource is so haphazardly and sloppily done, it does irreparable damage to the entire line.  Its really enough to make you sick. Does anyone who edits for writes for this game actually use any of the products they are writing for? Its plainly evident that whoever was in charge of the usefulness of this book doesn't have a clue or perhaps didn't care.  Didn't the crap edit job of the CORE SET maybe set them off thinking they should put some thought into a product?  Its like they just got the order "slap some crap together, throw it in a book and its cuz the fans bitched about the design and they don't know whats good for them so do a really minimal-attempt job because this game really isn't a priority and we only have the license because we got it as part of the deal for 40k..sorry you guys are overworked..maybe design this book over drinks or something..it's not like the creature guide is going to be one of the most-used products that we'll release."  Let's be honest.  Has any release for this game, especially the POD's, made you say "holy crap?  This is all new stuff, best edited ever, with such a great layout that every GM should be using this innovative and content-filled fluff for every game they've ever played! OMG, look at the attention to detail and usefulness of the fluff text at inspiring me to write an entire campaign surrounding the well-researched and heart-entrenched content of every single paragraph!?!?  NOT ENOUGH!  [rant off]

The BACK COVER says:The Creature Guide introduces dozens of new enemies and adversaries to face, with detailed infromation on tehse dangerous denizens, as wella s guidelines for using them in play and adventure seeds to weave into your campaigns.  This is blatant false advertising:  First, there are  not "dozens" of new adversaries.  A dozen is 12. Dozens means multiples of 12.  New means they've not been 'introduced' before.  Secondly, there are no ADVENTURE SEEDS as they advertise on the back cover.

You can download a fan-version rough estimated creature summary action sheet from Gitzman's gallery, and Yepsnopes has a good summary.  It doesn't summarize all of the monsters and just summarizes what the Creature guide has listed for the "general creature type." Because the fans had to put out such a crucial bit of information just goes to show who cares and who does not care.

Now, after all my griping, I'm stuck having to use this piece of crap every session because handling cards, sorting and resorting is a total pain in the buttocks.  I just post-it note a couple ability pages and the monster stat block page and i"m ready to go.  No "choosing the right card" or "re-sorting cards" when I'm done playing.  So, once you get past your initial frustration, you'll do just fine.

One more thing that generally nags me (since I'm using this thread to vent ..sorry), is that the boxed sets (Sof< Lop, OoW, and the other one) presents new monsters (in the boxed sets), without  useful completion:  Lure of power for instance:  "Slaanesh uses creatures/mortals from the core set..you can just go reference them there and stick a mark of slaanesh card on them, because we're too damn lazy to put the actual stat line here (ouch, too much work considering all the content-free fluff that we put in the book).  One good thing about lure of power however is that they put a "Suggested Action: line."  Not suggested "actionS" but at least the writers got off their bums and lifted one finger long enough to give us one action suggestion.  It's not until Omens of War have they actually instituted all of the simple game design elements that are common to a ROLE PLAYING GAME.  Until then, it's all just evidenced that ffg is a boardgame company who made a roleplaying game.  It's not that this game isn't wonderful, but there are a lot of things that roleplaying game companies headed up and staffed by roleplayers don't overlook that ffg couldn't even conceive of until us amateurs bothered to tell them about it or until these things had already reached the shelves.

Remember that the monsters from Witch's song, Omens of War, Lure of Power, and Heros call are not in this book.  [edit: there are 'some things' from witch's song, that I'll detail in the next post]

Oh, and ask around if you need to know what the vampire beguile ability is.  We fans will support you :)

 

jh

 



#3 Emirikol

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:09 AM

On a related note, it may be handy to do up a summary insert sheet for the guide from WS, OoW, LoP and Heros Call.

I'm running short on time after writing that glowing review, but we'll see.  :)

BTW, here is a complete bestiary from 2nd edition:  gallery.rptools.net/d/70404-2/WFRP2+-+Complete+creature+stat+block+list.pdf

There are only 114 monsters in the creature guide.

Here are the ones not detailed in the creature guide (the components list to this game hasn't been updated by FFG in a lonnnnnnnng time otherwise).  What I did was make a color copy of the stat blocks in the following books and stick them in the Creature Guide so I can reference them at a glance and not have to search through 3 more guides.

LIBER CARNAGIA (p.24)
DAEMONIC SERVANTS OF KHORNE
Bloodletter
Bloodthirster
Daemon Prince
Flesh Hound
Juggernaught
Karanak
Skulltaker

MORTAL SERVANTS OF KHORNE
Chaos Champion
Chaos Knight
Chaos Warrior
Maurauder Horseman
Pit Fighter Cultist (brilliant using existing material to expand the creature presentations. Two thumbs up.
Pit Fighter Leader
Valkia the Bloody

CARDS
ªª Bloodletter
ªª Bloodthirster
ªª Chaos Champion of Khorne
ªª Chaos Warrior of Khorne
ªª Chaos Knight
ªª Daemon Prince of Khorne
ªª Flesh Hound
ªª Juggernaught
ªª Karanak
ªª Mann Hirsch
ªª Marauder Horseman
ªª Olaf Warhound
ªª Pit Fighter Cultist
ªª Pit Fighter Leader
ªª Skaeling Marauder
ªª Skulltaker
ªª Tuula Bloodhair
ªª Valkia the Bloody
ªª Willi Ziege
ªª Zara Bok

LIBER ECSTATICA (p.18)
DAEMONIC SERVANTS OF SLAANESH
Daemonette (worst artwork evAR!)
Daemon Prince
Fiend of Slaanesh
Keeper of Secrets
Masque of Slaanesh
Seeker of Slaanesh
Steed of Slaanesh

MORTAL SERVANTS OF SLAANESH
Aeshtetes Cultist
Aesthetes Cult Leader
Chaos Sorcereer
Exalted Champion
Prince Sigvald
CARDS UNKNOWN AS I DIDN'T GET A CHANCE TO DIG THROUGH THAT HEAP


WITCH’S SONG
CARDS ONLY (NO STATISTICAL LISTING IN THE TEXT)
ªª Corsair
ªª Kreiger's Zealots
ªª Krijn
ªª Krijn's Fenbeast
ªª Mathias Krieger
ªª The Beast of Fauligmere
ªª Voluria
ªª Witch Elf


HERO’S CALL (p.54)
EPIC ANTAGONISTS
Archaon the Everchosen
Khazrak the One=Eye
Grimgore Ironhide
Mannfred Von Carstein
Grey Seer Thanquol
Golgfag Maneater
Lokhir Fellheart
EPIC MONSTERS
Galrauch the Great Drake
Arachnarok Spider
Ghorgon
Hell Pit Abomination
War Hydra
EPIC MINIONS
Sword fo Chaos
Boneripper
Ogre Maneater

 

Hero's call also has the lick-on-stick-on templates for tougher monsters.  Summarized, they are:

Sorcerer, Hero, Lord, Monstrous, Mastermind.

I also keep a copy of these in my guide for instant reference (then I don't have to dig out the card..again, nothing against using cards, I just find paper & pencil more to my liking in this case.

 

 jh



#4 Emirikol

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:14 AM

..and look what you're competing against:  WFB having more fluff (despised by tabletop miniatures wargamers):  Monstrous Arcanum.  Specific to Warhammer Fantasy, it goes very in-depth about each of the monsters of the Warhammer Fantasy universe.   It and the 2e Bestiary are both very good.  Not that the creature guide fluff is completely empty, but it is pretty limp in terms of content per creature and inspiration that can be drawn from each creature. It appears to have been either under-efforted or heavily edited down.  I prefer to hope that it is the latter.

 



#5 Captain Fluffy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:58 AM

Monstrous Arcanum is very very pretty but it is actually pretty short of fluff.  However the lack of text is more than made up for by awesome art. I got it at the weekend and started to do a couple of 3rd Ed conversions for the creatures before realising that my PC would need to survive for a few more ranks before throwing them against a Necroflex Colossus.  The fimir are back through which will please a lot of the 1st Ed people.

The 2nd Ed Bestiary, like most of the 2nd Ed products, is very good. The first part of the book is all in game views so you can just take bits and hand them out to your players as in-game knowledge.


Give me more fluff and less rules

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#6 Emirikol

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:47 PM

Epic level monsters just need the DeAdvancement Templates found in FFG's latest Print on Demand!  There's something for everyone in this POD !



#7 Yepesnopes

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:16 PM

 I want to add my voice to the criticism of Emirikol towards the creature guide and say that no single NPC in the creature guide has a comment for the weapons he carries neither the armour or shield. This is supposed to be a rpg not a board game, right?

There is also a lack of action cards for uncommon monsters like the dragon, possibility of hitting multiple targets? attacking at close distance…the same for many other creatures.


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#8 gruntl

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:21 PM

Emirikol said:

The BACK COVER says:The Creature Guide introduces dozens of new enemies and adversaries to face, with detailed infromation on tehse dangerous denizens, as wella s guidelines for using them in play and adventure seeds to weave into your campaigns.  This is blatant false advertising:  First, there are  not "dozens" of new adversaries.  A dozen is 12. Dozens means multiples of 12.  New means they've not been 'introduced' before.  Secondly, there are no ADVENTURE SEEDS as they advertise on the back cover.

I agree on that recommended actions should have been included in the book, otherwise I don't agree on a single thing in your review :)

Have you actually counted the number of new adversaries in the book? There are 32 adversaries in the Tome of Adventure and 72 in the Creature's guide. Fifty additional monsters in CG, that's more than four dozen new adversaries.

You say that the are no adventure seeds in the book. Huh? Each category of NPCs has a list of at least 3 seeds. 



#9 Emirikol

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:26 AM

I don't mean to nit-pick, but counting up the "new" monsters presented beyond those in the boxed sets (already presented in things like Signs of Faith, etc.): cockatrice, cold one dragon, fen beast, griffon, harpy, manticore, wyvern, dragon ogre shaggoth, dragon ogre, dryads, spites, tree kin, treemen, stone troll, ruffians, (a couple skaven?), 3 swarms, banshee, spirit, vampire(advertised as "dozens"). As for adventure seeds, I'll take that back and may try to develop a few ;) jh

#10 Emirikol

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:22 AM

Gruntl: good job pointing out the adventure seeds (i missed them). Some of them look like they would be really fun to develop.

Here's a summary: Creature Guide Adventure Seeds

Beasts: City Gone Wild,Arachnophobia,A Chill Wind

Beastmen: The Burning Forest, Lost in the Woods, Three Day Ride

Chaos: Muster at Geheimnisnacht, The Horror in the Hills, The End Times are Nigh!

Cultists: None Daemons: A Cure for What Ails You, Dark Reflection, The River�s Rage (Mislabled- should be The Sable Globe)

Dark Elves/Druchii: Rites of Blood, The Wrong Inn, The Derelict Ship

Dwarfs: None

Forest Spirits: Off the Beaten Path, Wood Woes, Sage Advice

Giant & Troll: Big Game, The River�s Rage (see mis-labled daemon adventure of same title as well), What�s Mine is Mine

Greenskins: We Iz Da Best!, Like Wolves in the Fold, Death in Black

Humans: None NPCs: Fear of Heights, Incriminating Evidence, Dark Deeds

Skaven: Slave Raiders, Warpstone Hunters, The Cover-up, The Delegation from the Sewers, The Contagion

Swarms: A Dirty Job, Days of Darkness, Whispers in the Walls

Undead: Dark Lord of the Manor, Inn Trouble, Night of the Dead, Voices in the Dark

Wood Elves: None

I updated the WFRP complete scenario list to include them: http://gallery.rptoo...D LINKS_001.pdf



#11 socratim

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:35 AM

Emirikol said:

Epic level monsters just need the DeAdvancement Templates found in FFG's latest Print on Demand!  There's something for everyone in this POD !

 

:-D *thumbs up*



#12 Emirikol

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:35 AM

Speaking of guides:

The Tzeentch boxed set:  All the magic rules and stuff…

The Slaanesh boxed set:  A crapload new social actions (some of them are probably a little redundant to social skill specializations, but I think that makes it more interesting!)

 






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