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Allowing CSMs to be Cinematic bad asses.


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#1 Zso Sahaal

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:39 AM

So my players, who are slowly getting more and more into the fluff, commented on some limitations on Black Crusade they think hamper the game from feeling like the 40k Universe. My group is made entirely (for now) of traitor Astartes and they felt that while immense bad asses that they were being hampered.

The first thing they brought up is how often they describe Astartes of all kinds rocking out on full auto with bolters. To me this was an easy fix. I double the amount of rounds consumed by Semi-Auto and that became full auto bursts. They loved it! The encounters after this house rule was introduced were a boarding action followed by a drop pod landing on a planet where they held off an advancing tide of infantry and vehicles. They used single shots and aiming to take out officers and targets of oppurtunity and switched to full auto to suppress and pin the enemy's advance.

The second thing is run and gun. My players talked about how they describe that a Space Marine can haul absolute ass and still engage targets due to the nature of his power armor and training. So in one instance the group was chasing a captured Space Wolf through the lower decks of a space station which was a labyrinth of corridors and debris used for combat and training. Aiming and called shots required the players to stop and allowed the distance to spread. firing while on the run of any type was a big hit to BS. But they felt like bad asses passing an agility test to vault a fallen support beam or dangling cables while taking the occasional shot of oppurtunity or laying a swath of fire to herd him to waiting team mates. The concept was everyone was running flat out so distance was relatively constant and would open or close depending on choices by the player or result of rolls. My khornate player simply focused on running so the distance between him and the space wolf steadily closed unless he tripped over something (it happened). It was one of our funnest sessions.

The third thing which my sorcerer actually reccomended was a sort of exertition factor for him. based on his psy rating and WPB and Corruption Bonus. It's the amount of times he can cast unfettered without taxing himself. he can cast fettered as much as he wants. Pushing costs double and doing something while maintaining an extended power is also double. Once he reaches past this limit he has to test against toughness or suffer fatigue. He likes the added challenge of rationing his strength.

So those are my current house rules what do yall think?



#2 Larkin

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:26 AM

I think that you're doing a wonderful job and should keep it up. I would love to play in this game, sounds like a lot of fun.



#3 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 11:29 AM

The only complaint I'd have is that letting Space Marines run and gun would make human characters seem outclassed (more so than they otherwise would be against a CSM), but otherwise that session sounds like great fun. Perhaps human characters could also run and gun with a homebrewed Talent.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#4 PnPgamer

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 04:28 AM

In the professionalism of my ability to write I want to express in the essence of utmost importance of the thoughts of the original post:

me jelly



#5 Lynata

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:02 AM

Boss Gitsmasha said:

The only complaint I'd have is that letting Space Marines run and gun would make human characters seem outclassed (more so than they otherwise would be against a CSM), but otherwise that session sounds like great fun. Perhaps human characters could also run and gun with a homebrewed Talent.

Human characters are comically outclassed in this interpretation of the setting anyways, and OP's game is CSM only, so fortunately for them they would not have to feel constrained in this way. For what it's worth, they could even kick it up to eleven and import the ton of bonuses and abilities that Space Marines get in the Deathwatch game. Squad modes for Traitor Marines? Different armour marks? Histories and deeds? Lots of possibilities there!

I really like the idea of "run and gun", and will propose it to my emerging Deathwatch group. :)

For the record, I think this is something that anybody should be able to do. It has nothing to do with physique or training (beyond normal skill at arms, which is already represented by the BS characteristic) … arms and legs can move independently in real life as well. :P

Out of curiosity, what penalties exactly did you apply here? I'm thinking something like -20 or -30 could be fitting, and of course no Aimed shots? Maybe even make pistols work better for this than basic weapons, as they are small(er) and easier to aim this way.

I'd probably not allow it for heavy weapons, though; I think those should only "walk and gun", otherwise the look and feel of these massive cannons gets lost.

Thanks for sharing. It was inspirational. :)


current 40k RPG character: Captain Elias, Celestial Lions Tactical Marine   
previous characters: Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader frigate Artemisia)

#6 Gaius

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 03:51 AM

Lynata said:

Human characters are comically outclassed in this interpretation of the setting anyways, and OP's game is CSM only, so fortunately for them they would not have to feel constrained in this way. For what it's worth, they could even kick it up to eleven and import the ton of bonuses and abilities that Space Marines get in the Deathwatch game. Squad modes for Traitor Marines? Different armour marks? Histories and deeds? Lots of possibilities there!

I really like the idea of "run and gun", and will propose it to my emerging Deathwatch group. :)

I'd second the idea of considering letting the PCs have access to some of the squad modes from Deathwatch as an option. The PCs would likely take cohesion damage a lot more regularly but if they have a close enough bond (for chaos marines) I don't see why they couldn't rekindle the use of some common "Legion Squad Modes" (the Codex ones initially). I very nearly organised an all Black Legion character game for my players around this very notion, renaming several of the Oaths in the book and assigning them to different achetypes (and character personalities). 

As for the run and gun rule, it's shown quite clearly through a number of squad modes in deathwatch with fire for effect and bolter assault (though in the case of bolter assault these are only for those wielding the more common bolt weapons and grenades) being the ones that come to mind. Take into consideration how the hip shooting rule would work in this situation, as this is the kind of thing it is meant for. If the rule is making the players and GM happy sounds good to me but maybe give the players a bonus to hit or an additional single shot if they take hip shooting. Just something for your consideration.

I'm not so inclined to have mixed mortal/legionaire games after running my first game. I think there are some unique opportunities to having all mortal or all legionaire games and combat is a lot easier to balance for a one type party with the base game in abilities and gear taken into account especially early on.

In the Black Crusade I've just started the PCs are all using the standard power armour rules in the core book however this in my mind is because they are wearing somewhat Frankenstein suits of power armour but they might be able to loot corvus and such armour off loyalists though I wont be giving the fellowship bonuses for suits like Maximus. In my mind amongst Chaos Marines having armour that old isn't to be revered but as a sign you aren't strong enough to upgrade it with superior and more modern armour.



#7 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 01:52 PM

Gaius said:

 

In the Black Crusade I've just started the PCs are all using the standard power armour rules in the core book however this in my mind is because they are wearing somewhat Frankenstein suits of power armour but they might be able to loot corvus and such armour off loyalists though I wont be giving the fellowship bonuses for suits like Maximus. In my mind amongst Chaos Marines having armour that old isn't to be revered but as a sign you aren't strong enough to upgrade it with superior and more modern armour.

 

 

This is a setting where older usually means better, at least where technology is concerned. If a Chaos Space Marine finds a suit of archeotech power armor that dates back to the Great Crusade or the Horus Heresy, he's almost certainly going to wear it, especially if it's better than the suit of armor he had earlier. This goes double for Terminator suits, which are all ancient and powerful as a rule.

Besides, wouldn't it be a display of dedication that you went through so much time and effort to find this ancient armor, just so you could convey a certain image to your enemies? If the armor is archeotech/otherwise powerful, it displays your wealth or resourcefulness, since you can afford such an exotic suit of armor. Or if the armor really is inferior, it's a display of martial pride that you can take to the field with inferior wargear and still come out on top. It's not the armor that matters, it's the man wearing it.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#8 Gaius

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 12:21 PM

Even in the Imperium older isn't better. The power armour they built (in bulk, ie most Legionaire/Astrates) and plasma weapons that they could build during the great crusade are actually worse than those developed later. In the case of plasma weapons this meant that later they developed a lower powered setting that was less inclined towards overheating (in one of the many versions of the setting, lets be honest games workshop does like their retconning).

Power armour was refined from thunder armour to aquila power armour from the reunification of terra using the Thunder armour to the Aquila armour at the dawn of the heresy. The background generally agrees that most of the later armours are agreed to provide superior protection to the older though in the case of loyalists they put a level of prestige and honour due to the age and veneration of the older suits. Some Chaos Marines might indeed agree with this viewpoint and I can definitely get a nostalgic legionaire wanting to keep his armour. Different bits of background have Chaos Marines trying to get the superior protection of newer suits if they can (on top of the components being in working order!) in looting after battle… though I always suspected this was games workshop trying to explain why the models were blatantly wearing aquila armour and not older variants, though this trend seems to be changing in the newer line of releases! Still I can accept if the GM wanted to go with an approach like your own Gitsmasha.



#9 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:06 PM

It's true that Thunder armor is generally inferior to the Mk.VII suits, but then you look at things like the artificer armor that the Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard has. These are all relics that date back to the Great Crusade, and they're irreplaceable; the best the Blood Angels can do is repair the suits piecemeal and painstakingly repairing every single little scratch they suffer by hand. They make the wearers look like golden statues and they provide protection above and beyond anything that even the Mk.VII suits can provide. Inferno pistols are also described as ancient, powerful, rare, and nearly impossible to replicate every time they're mentioned, and even plasma weapons get this treatment (though not to such a degree as Inferno pistols). I also don't think either the Imperium or Chaos has manufactured a whole Terminator suit (not just repairing old ones piecemeal) for thousands of years. And then there's all the exotic archeotech weapons.

But yeah, a nostalgic Chaos Space Marine sounds like an interesting character concept. "This suit of armor has kept me alive for ten thousand years! I've spoken to my Primarch before his ascension, I've seen the Emperor walk amongst mortals, and I will be there at the end to cast the corpse-god down from his Throne forever! You can keep your fancy new suits, this one's all I need!" It'll look like a mess of bullet holes and scratched paint, but he's proud of it, Khorne bless 'im.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#10 MechHaven

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 11:19 AM

Astartes PA advanced in technology up to Mk IV. Mk V armor used less advanced and better understood technology to Equip fresh troops drawn up to replace losses in the early days of the heresy. Mks VI-VIII use the same basic tech with (mostly)minor stylistic differences and the parts are freely interchangeable, and are a mid point between between Mk IV and V. Also, with the exception of the Mk VIII, all were developed during the crusade or heresy, and it was developed shortly after.

Edited by MechHaven, 19 October 2013 - 11:31 AM.





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