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Crown Regent & Euron Crow's Eye


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#1 Slothgodfather

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:50 AM

Got a question regarding the Crown Regent and Euron.  Here is the scenario:

Player A attacks Player B (Who is a GJ player with Euron [TGM] in play) but during step 4* the challenge is redirected by the Crown Regent and a new opponent is chosen.  Player A now declares that challenge against Player C.

I know the redirect is happening at/in/before Step 4 (passives)* before we get to Step 5 for Responses, which means that the challenge was declared sucessfully (step 3).  The redirect forces the attacker to chose another target, if possible.  In this example they choose Player C.  They re-complete Step 1,2 & 3 by declaring their challenge against that player. 

*I know this has been mentioned before that the redirect is more technically like it's own framework event, but does that mean it happens before standard passives as well?

My question is, since a challenge was successfully declared against the GJ player, and it doesn't seem we ever left the framework window since the attacker can't change who he is attacking with or what challenge type, will Player B (GJ) still get to trigger the Response on Euron?

 

 

For clarity, here is Euron's Response:

"Response: After an opponent declares a challenge against you, discard the top card of each opponent's deck. Then, draw 1 card for each location discarded in this way. "



#2 ktom

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:24 AM

No. By the time the GJ player can trigger his Response, there is no challenge against him. So the play restrictions are not true at the time the Response would be triggered - which is all that is important.

This is the flip side to playing a 2-STR Bolton character while Winterfell Castle is out, so that by the time you go to trigger Dreadfort, the character you played is 3 STR. 



#3 Slothgodfather

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:06 AM

LOL, doh!   I'm not sure why I didn't think of having to check restrictions in order to trigger the response.  Thanks ktom.



#4 Bolzano

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:58 AM

ktom said:

No. By the time the GJ player can trigger his Response, there is no challenge against him. So the play restrictions are not true at the time the Response would be triggered - which is all that is important.

This is the flip side to playing a 2-STR Bolton character while Winterfell Castle is out, so that by the time you go to trigger Dreadfort, the character you played is 3 STR. 

 

The play restriction to trigger Euron's response is not that there is a challenge against its controller. A challenge must have been declared against him.

So any redirection does not really matter, imho.



#5 ktom

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:55 PM

Bolzano said:

The play restriction to trigger Euron's response is not that there is a challenge against its controller. A challenge must have been declared against him.

So any redirection does not really matter, imho.

Given the FAQ entry:

(3.31) “Participated” and
Removal From Challenge

A character is only considered to have
participated if they remain in the challenge
through its resolution. If they are removed
from a challenge, there is no memory of that
character having participated in that challenge.

I'd say the argument is much stronger that if a given defending player stops being the defending player somewhere between "Active Player declares challenge type and opponent" and the Response step to "Active Player declares challenge and opponent," there is no memory of the challenge being declared against the original defender - meaning that Euron has nothing to respond to if the challenge is redirected.

So in the situation of "A attacks B, D redirect, so A attacks C," if B is the Greyjoy player, Euron cannot trigger his discard ability.

Keep in mind that following your "redirection does not matter" reasoning, if A attacks B and D redirects so that A attacks C, if C is the Greyjoy player, Euron would not beable to trigger his discard ability because the challenge was not declared against him (he was just chosen as a "new target" of the attack). Does that sound right? 



#6 Bolzano

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:06 AM

This FAQ entry only extends to ur situation by interpretation.

I agree that sometimes we have to assume some FAQ entries aplies in a larger context. But in this specific case, I see no reason why.

Assuming this, your argument is not much stronger.

 

And yes, yourr last example seems perfectly right. That's actually the way we play it : making a difference between declaring a challenge and redirecting it, and keeping the memory of challenge declaration (within the same framework action window).



#7 ktom

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:36 AM

So…

1. Characters that are declared in a challenge but are removed have "no memory"  that they were ever participating.

2. If a card has an "until the end of the phase" effect on it and leaves play before the end of the phase, it has "no memory" of the effect while out-of-play or even if it is returned to play.

3. If a non-character card was acting as a character while in play, it has "no memory" that it was a character while in play (for effects such as Narrow escape).

4. Responses look at the play restrictions as they exist at the time they are triggered, so there is effectively "no memory" of what the game state looked like when the resoinse opportunity was created.

5. When the "supports" mechanic is used to "redirect" a challenge, the supporting player becomes the only defending player, after which the game has "no memory" of the original target being the "defending player" beyond the specifically defined fact that s/he is responsible for claim effects if the attacker wins.

But:

6. If a challenge is redirected the original defender "remembers" that he had a challenge declared against him.

 

Seems inconsistent to me. With pretty much everything else in the game falling into some form of "no memory" or "current game state" interpretation, I'd say the heavier burden of persuasion falls on justifying why the redirect situation would be different, so that it does have a memory of a challenge being declared against someone other than the current defending player.



#8 MrFixit

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:57 AM

I don't see why player C while being GJ couldn't trigger his Euron.

 

As far as i understand the rules it would look like this:

 

Player A declares target player, challenge type and kneels attacking characters.

If you view the Crown Regent as a Response effect in this timing window, it should depend on the order in which the player may respond.

Also the Ability specifically states that in order to trigger the ability it is only necessary that the challenge will be declared against you. It doesn't need to resolve or anything else. And if there was no declaration against Player A the redirect would have never occured ..

Moreover if Player C is also GJ and he is the one the challenge is redirected to, the challenge isn't automatically redirected to him but Player A has to declare him as his new target.

So again the player has a challenge declared against him and can trigger Eurons ability in the proper response frame.

 

We also play it this way with meraxes.. as soon as you initiate a challenge against someone you are not allowed to draw a card, no matter if the challenge was redirected in anyway.

 

 



#9 Bomb

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:19 AM

MrFixit said:

If you view the Crown Regent as a Response effect in this timing window, it should depend on the order in which the player may respond.

The Crown Regent is not a Response, so this will not factor in to the timing window with Responses.

 

MrFixit said:

Also the Ability specifically states that in order to trigger the ability it is only necessary that the challenge will be declared against you. It doesn't need to resolve or anything else. And if there was no declaration against Player A the redirect would have never occured ..

Moreover if Player C is also GJ and he is the one the challenge is redirected to, the challenge isn't automatically redirected to him but Player A has to declare him as his new target.

So again the player has a challenge declared against him and can trigger Eurons ability in the proper response frame.

If you read what ktom's is explaining, you look at the current situation and play restrictions at the moment you would trigger responses.   I get your position, but that would mean that the new target of the attack does not have that challenge declared against them because the original target already had been declared against.  The new target also would be unable to trigger their own Euron(if they had them).

What you are saying would look like this to me:

Player A and Player B both control the aforementioned version of Euron.

1) I declare a POW challenge against player A and am attacking with X characters.

2) Player B redirects with Crown Regent.

3) I pick Player B as my new target.

4) Responses -> Which Euron is triggered?  Player A or Player B?

Only one opponent has a challenge declared against them set by your opinion that this is determined before the redirect happens.  Declaration of challenge type and opponent is done in Step 1of that challenge framework action.
 

All in all, I agree with ktom because you look at the current state of the game and play restrictions at the point of triggering the response.



#10 MrFixit

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:11 PM

So what is the step or phase in which the Crown Regent steps in?

The Timing chart does not mention him, does it?

So he either should get an own timing or he is translated into a response much like a duplicate for instance…

He could also be translated into a cancel effect then the timing would also be clear.. but for me at this moment i can't find any proper explanation.

 

Let's take another approach:

 

Assuming i haven't got the Crown Regent, but i am using Lannister Varys (If you have more than 1 opponent Varys gains: "Response: After an opponent declares a challenge, put Varys into Shadows to redirect the challenge against an eligible opponent of your choice, ignoring any Title restrictions."). 

Would we still be having this discussion?

GJ Player triggers his response first (assuming he's closer to the first player) because a challenge was declared against him, then lannister player triggers varys, Other GJ player is targeted and has a challenge declared against him and therefor can trigger his response too.

 

It all depends on where CR is set in the timing chart.

 



#11 ktom

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:44 AM

MrFixit said:

So what is the step or phase in which the Crown Regent steps in?
It happens during Step 3 for the "Attacking Player kneels attacking characters" framework action. Titles are game mechanics, not card effects. In this case, it is a game mechanic that kicks in after attackers are declared. It effectively becomes a third, optional framework event when the title is chosen by a player.

Comparing its translation to a duplicate or a cancel is not appropriate since, as you note, there is nothing in the rules that specifically creates such a translation. The better comparison is to bringing cards out of Shadows. The timing chart doen't mention them, either, but the rules tell you exactly what to do and when.

Point being, the redirect happens long before Response are triggered. At the time Responses are triggered, there is only one defending player, so only that player can trigger "against you"-type effects because that's what the game state looks like when the Response is triggered. Only one challenge was declared (redirected or not). There is only one person on the other side of that challenge. When play restrictions are checked at the time the Response is triggered, that's all the game has to go on.

MrFixit said:

Assuming i haven't got the Crown Regent, but i am using Lannister Varys … Would we still be having this discussion?
In the scenario you lay out (original defender triggers, then Varys, then new defender triggers), no. Because at the time each player triggers their Response, they are the defending player in the current challenge.

But what if the Lannister player triggers first? With only one challenge ever declared, how can it have been declared against both players? Why does the person who has no (current) stake in the outcome of the challenge get to trigger Responses as if he did? (See, we are still having this discussion with Varys instead of Crown Regent.)



#12 MrFixit

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:31 AM

I just have a problem with the statement that there can be only one player that a challenge can be declared upon.

i mean a declaration doesn't in any way imply "going through" with anything (i.e. the challenge).

The word simply describes the announcement of a target and a challenge type. Why should the initial target be forgotten?

 

And in addition:

By your logic the first player who used the redirect or from which the challenge was redirected was also never attacked, or am i wrong?

 

 






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