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Bundle of question : About ranged definition - About player actions during combat during staging - About the Magic Ring in Hover and Under Hill


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#1 alogos3

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:16 PM

First : About ranged

The card Rivendell Bow says : it gets +1 Attack during a ranged attack. www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/lotr/lord-of-the-rings-card-spoiler/_/dwarrowdelf/the-watcher-in-the-water/rivendell-bow-twitw. But what is a ranged attack ?

An attack against an ennemy engaged with another player ?
or
An attack against an ennemy not engaged with you ?
or
An attack who need the Ranged keyword ?

For the one who don't see the diffenrence, those are 3 differents answers :

In the first case, hands upon the bow (http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/lotr/lord-of-the-rings-card-spoiler/_/dwarrowdelf/shadow-and-flame/hands-upon-the-bow-saf) or goblin archer (www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/lotr/lord-of-the-rings-card-spoiler/_/khazad-dum/goblin-archer-kd) give you no bonus. Nor doesblack forest bats (www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/lotr/lord-of-the-rings-card-spoiler/_/shadows-of-mirkwood/a-journey-to-rhosgobel/black-forest-bats-ajtr) or mirkwood flock (www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/lotr/lord-of-the-rings-card-spoiler/_/shadows-of-mirkwood/a-journey-to-rhosgobel/mirkwood-flock-ajtr).

In the second case, hands upon the bow and goblin archer give you the +1 bonus, but not for black forest bats and mirkwood flocks.

In the thirs cas, you have the +1 bonus in those 4 situation.

Definition from the rulebook :

A character with the ranged keyword can be declared by its controller as an attacker against enemies that are engaged with other players. A character can declare ranged attacks against these targets while its owner is declaring attacks, or it can participate in attacks that are declared by other players. In either case, the character must exhaust and meet any other requirements necessary to make the attack.

It says when you can declare ranged attacks, but not if it's the only moment when an attack is considered ranged. The cards raising the question where not in the coreset so I believe that the definition of a ranged may need to be extended. 

Can we have a confirmation or an extension of the definition of a Ranged attack ?

 

Second : About out of turn actions

During an ennemy attack, players have opportunity to use actions. Some cards makes the ennemies attack out of the combat phase, like in the staging step, when players can't normally use actions. See wild bear (www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/lotr/lord-of-the-rings-card-spoiler/_/dwarrowdelf/road-to-rivendell/wild-bear-rtr) and followed by night (www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/lotr/lord-of-the-rings-card-spoiler/_/dwarrowdelf/road-to-rivendell/followed-by-night-rtr]followed by night).

Can players use actions in those pseudo-combat phase or not ?

This is extremely important when you can straighten Eleanor or use a dwarven tomb on a test of will… or using the second action of the magic ring of bilbo in the third quest of over hill and under hill…… wait, this is totally silly, why would players uses bilbo magic ring when you can't use its action during the staging step…

 

Bonus ! Third one : Magic Ring 

Card text :

Action: When answering a riddle, spend 1 [Baggins] resource to discard an additional player card from the top of your deck.

Should we read Response instead of Action ? 

 

Thanks a lot for reading this long post. Sorry if I try to breaking rules :P



#2 richsabre

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 01:20 AM

alogos3 said:

 

First : About ranged

The card Rivendell Bow says : it gets +1 Attack during a ranged attack. www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/lotr/lord-of-the-rings-card-spoiler/_/dwarrowdelf/the-watcher-in-the-water/rivendell-bow-twitw. But what is a ranged attack ?

An attack against an ennemy engaged with another player ?
or
An attack against an ennemy not engaged with you ?
or
An attack who need the Ranged keyword ?

For the one who don't see the diffenrence, those are 3 differents answers :

In the first case, hands upon the bow (http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/lotr/lord-of-the-rings-card-spoiler/_/dwarrowdelf/shadow-and-flame/hands-upon-the-bow-saf) or goblin archer (www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/lotr/lord-of-the-rings-card-spoiler/_/khazad-dum/goblin-archer-kd) give you no bonus. Nor doesblack forest bats (www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/lotr/lord-of-the-rings-card-spoiler/_/shadows-of-mirkwood/a-journey-to-rhosgobel/black-forest-bats-ajtr) or mirkwood flock (www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/lotr/lord-of-the-rings-card-spoiler/_/shadows-of-mirkwood/a-journey-to-rhosgobel/mirkwood-flock-ajtr).

In the second case, hands upon the bow and goblin archer give you the +1 bonus, but not for black forest bats and mirkwood flocks.

In the thirs cas, you have the +1 bonus in those 4 situation.

Definition from the rulebook :

A character with the ranged keyword can be declared by its controller as an attacker against enemies that are engaged with other players. A character can declare ranged attacks against these targets while its owner is declaring attacks, or it can participate in attacks that are declared by other players. In either case, the character must exhaust and meet any other requirements necessary to make the attack.

It says when you can declare ranged attacks, but not if it's the only moment when an attack is considered ranged. The cards raising the question where not in the coreset so I believe that the definition of a ranged may need to be extended. 

Can we have a confirmation or an extension of the definition of a Ranged attack ?

 

Second : About out of turn actions

During an ennemy attack, players have opportunity to use actions. Some cards makes the ennemies attack out of the combat phase, like in the staging step, when players can't normally use actions. See wild bear (www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/lotr/lord-of-the-rings-card-spoiler/_/dwarrowdelf/road-to-rivendell/wild-bear-rtr) and followed by night (www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/lotr/lord-of-the-rings-card-spoiler/_/dwarrowdelf/road-to-rivendell/followed-by-night-rtr]followed by night).

Can players use actions in those pseudo-combat phase or not ?

This is extremely important when you can straighten Eleanor or use a dwarven tomb on a test of will… or using the second action of the magic ring of bilbo in the third quest of over hill and under hill…… wait, this is totally silly, why would players uses bilbo magic ring when you can't use its action during the staging step…

 

Bonus ! Third one : Magic Ring 

Card text :

Action: When answering a riddle, spend 1 [Baggins] resource to discard an additional player card from the top of your deck.

Should we read Response instead of Action ? 

 

Thanks a lot for reading this long post. Sorry if I try to breaking rules :P

 

 

1. i asked the designer about something similar….this is a case where a ranged attack is where you are attacking ONLY in the manner of attacking another players engaged enemies.

hands upon the bow is not a ranged attack

i do not believe attacking an enemy in the staging area is ranged

nor is attacking an enemy that needs a ranged character

so the +1 on the bow is only when attacking another players enemies

also its worth noting that a ranged attatchment does not count as a 'printed ranged' for the +1

 

2. im not sure but here is answers from the FAQ that may help

(1.33) Attacks by non-engaged enemies
When an enemy attacks a player, that player may declare 1 defender whether the enemy is engaged with him or not. Sentinel may also be used to defend against such attacks.

(1.26) Enemy attacks outside of the combat phase
If an enemy attacks outside of the combat phase, it is still dealt a shadow card at the beginning of the attack. Then follow the 4 steps under Phase 6 “Combat” in the rules.
 

3. im not sure whether it makes a difference?

rich


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#3 alogos3

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:37 AM

Thanks for the answers rich, but it seems my questions were not that clear because… well, it's not what I was looking for.

1 - I'm well aware none of them are NOT ranged attacks as define in the rulebook (see extract that I quote)…

That definition is way too old and indirect.  What I want is a clear definition from FFG.

2 - You're saying that, yes, we can play action during the staging step while this step is considered a non-playable-action step.

I don't mind that, but again… is this what the designer team wanted ? the hazard of the staging step comes partly from the players inability to play action. 

3 - Just has said in 2, players can't play action in the staging step. Riddle, as far as I know, appear in the staging step. The magic ring utility is only during the staging step… but you can't use it. Am I missing something ?



#4 starhawk77

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 10:32 AM

1. A ranged attack is an attack made via the ranged keyword that targets an enemy engaged with another player. You yourself quoted the only rules passage needed to define the term. 

When you use Hands Upon the Bow or attack the Goblin Archer, you are not making a "ranged attack" per se. You are making an attack with a ranged character. "Ranged attacks" are those that apply the particular ruleset associated with the ranged keyword. So, Rivendell Bow won't give a bonus in those situations.

 

2. In short, yes and no. From p. 5 of the FAQ: "If an enemy attacks outside of the combat phase, it is still dealt a shadow card at the beginning of the attack. Then follow the 4 steps under Phase 6 “Combat” in the rules."

In the core rules, you'll notice that players are allowed to take actions between each combat step. Since the FAQ directs you to execute all the normal steps of combat resolution, you'll be able to take actions after each step if the additional attack occurs during, say, the refresh phase.

If the additional attack happens during staging, it gets a bit more murky. The above rationale runs into the timing chart at the back of the book, which states that players cannot take actions during staging. My inclination would be to say that the blanket prohibition overrides the ability to act between combat phases (since "can't" usually overrides "can"), but there's not a definitive answer I'm aware of. 

 

3. Yes, it probably should have been a response. But the rules insert gives a very clear example of how Bilbo's Magic Ring can be used, so it's not a big deal.

 



#5 alogos3

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:03 PM

Once again, it seems I was not direct enough in my questions, I could copy paste the exact same thing I respond to richsabre.

 

So, to be clear.

1. There is NO definition of a "ranged attack". The extract from the rulebook use the "ranged" adjective, so all players assume it was the one and only situation when we can define the attack as a "ranged attack", but grammatically, when he participate in another player attack, it is not a "ranged attack". I guess everyone played without considering this, because it seems… logical, but so is the situation I described. I want FFG to define clearly what a "ranged attack" is.

2. As you noticed, there is a grey area, and it is not a question for players to answer. I want FFG to add those details on the faq.

 

Something new happened… I saw the spoiler of Heirs of Numenor… I saw the ability of the Master of Lore…

FFG, you might want to do an errata on one of those cards, like you did on Beravor and Zigil Miner : Horn of Gondor, Born Aloft, Erebor Hammersmith, Durin's Legacy, Master of Lore. I hope you will understand why.

 

So, it seems all my questions is for the FFG/LOTR's designer team… is this forum not the right place to contact them ? cause I don't see another way to do so.

 

 



#6 richsabre

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:40 PM

alogos3 said:

So, it seems all my questions is for the FFG/LOTR's designer team… is this forum not the right place to contact them ? cause I don't see another way to do so.

if you go to the top of the page, more, customer services, contact ffg…usually its several weeks before you get an answer.

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#7 muemakan

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:10 AM

alogos3 said:

Horn of Gondor, Born Aloft, Erebor Hammersmith, Durin's Legacy, Master of Lore. I hope you will understand why.

 

 

I don´t understand why.

I cannot comment on Master of Lore yet, but what´s wrong with the other cards??



#8 kennoastic

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:58 AM

rulebook page 24:

 

Ranged
A character with the ranged keyword can be declared 
by its controller as an attacker against enemies that are 
engaged with other players. A character can declare 
ranged attacks against these targets while its owner is 
declaring attacks, or it can participate in attacks that are 
declared by other players. In either case, the character 
must exhaust and meet any other requirements 
necessary to make the attack.
 
to me this defines ranged attack as an attack where the character with the ranged keyword is declared by its controller as an attacker against enemies that are engaged with other players.
 
edit: or do you mean that this line "or it can participate in attacks that are declared by other players" implies that the character is not performing a ranged attack while participating in attacks declared by other players?


#9 alogos3

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:52 AM

Exactly.I'm not a native english, but the construction of the phrase does not define what a ranged attack is, and the position of the coma indicate that the second part does not inherit the concept of a ranged attack, so technicaly  "or it can participate in attacks that are declared by other players" implies that the character is not performing a ranged attack.



#10 CJMatos

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:06 AM

alogos3 said:

Exactly.I'm not a native english, but the construction of the phrase does not define what a ranged attack is, and the position of the coma indicate that the second part does not inherit the concept of a ranged attack, so technicaly  "or it can participate in attacks that are declared by other players" implies that the character is not performing a ranged attack.

 

I do not agree on that, because:

a) when a character participates in attacks that are declared by other players, he needs the ranged keyword;

b) In that attack, he is not attacking an enemy that the player who controls him is engaged with;

 

So, in my opinion that character is performing an ranged attack on either situation (attack declared against enemy engaged with other player or joining an attack declared by another player to an enemy not engaged with the controller of that character)

 

 

And the rules, for me, say exactly that…


Carlos José Matos





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