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Quick-Draw Shootout - Wild west Style


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#1 Jeans_Stealer

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 12:06 AM

Anyone make any rules for a gunslinger duel?

I didn't want it to fall down to a 'roll for initiative' and 'Quickdraw' talents ruling all.

The best I came up with was:

1. single shot only

2. Roll initiative

3. Targets stand 15 metres apart

4. Willpower checks every round - Fail = -10 to tests, 4 degrees fail = -20 to tests

5. Keep going until someone's down.

I feel it should be better than this, like… I don't know, both characters have a delayed half-action, and they have to pass a willpower check each round (starting at +30, reducing by -10 each round) in order to draw? They roll initiative but their delayed action is opposed, as they technically us it at the same time?

Rules for a 'Duel' are pretty straightforward (just check wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel) but this is quickdraw, and I can't quite get it right…



#2 Darth Smeg

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 12:41 AM

Realistically, it won't happen. The one who draws first will win.

A trained gunman can draw, fire and holster in 0.02 seconds. Yes, no kidding. (Google Bob Munden).

Most people have a reaction time of around 0.2 - 0.25 seconds, the world record in Fast Draw clocking in at an amazing 0.145 seconds. Even so, this is too slow to have sufficent time to draw and shoot before your opponent has filled you with hot lead (or plasma, or whatever).

Forgetting all about reality (this is a game after all, and you wanted cinematic action), it still doesn't make sense unless you are significantly better than your opponent. 

You want to wait until you see that your opponent is going to draw and fire his gun. Then you want to start doing the same thing yourself, but you intent to start after your opponent, and STILL finish before him?

In a match between equals, it is clear that this will never work.

Unless I misunderstood, and you are thinking of the kind of duels where you start back to back, then walk 5 paces, turn and shoot?


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#3 Jeans_Stealer

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:47 AM

Well, in the wild west that was subjective as tech wasn't QUITE good enough. The gun could jam or be horrifically inaccurate. firing accurately from the hip with a double action revolver was pretty damn hard. But I'm not asking to debate that

But we're talking about Dark Heresy. European Duels were NOT what I meant (the 10-pace walk, turn and fire until the 'matter' is settled or swordfight to first-blood) I meant billy the kidd and Wyatt Earp etc. The European duel is the easiest thing to translate - give them each a musket pistol or dueling las, first to shoot is the Challenged or simply have them pick when to fire or something. After every shot, ask if the matter is settled, or after every wounding hit if it's swords - basically as described on wikipedia.

Yeah I saw that guy, it was pretty incredible.  I'm pretty sure the Average human reaction time for a non-auto response (up the stem to the brain and down again) is about 0.7 seconds, though? Happy to be wrong though.

No I'm literally thinking town square, 15-30 metres, quick-draw wild-west style.  Simply saying 'Roll initiative' doesn't cut it - I want more. I'm thinking it's a battle of wills and perception, but I'm not sure how to translate it into rules.

This is why I'm thinking to put players on a 'tense' delayed action or something, only allowed to fire single-shot etc. I'm just not sure. Was wondering if anyone had any rules for it already, or whether I should just playtest characters with different rules until it's done (and the bodies mount.)

So as a basis:

Both characters roll initiative, and start off with a Delayed half action.  If a character/NPC wants to hold off for the opposition to draw or to see what he does etc. he takes a (+30) Willpower Check to maintain his nerves. Every time he passes, the difficulty of this test increases by one step. If a character fails this test or wants to draw, he goes for his weapon, and the opposed agility test to see who gets to go first occurs- but first…

The opposite character/NPC must take a (+40) Awareness check to spot him drawing his weapon. If he succeeds, for every two degrees of success he gets (+10) to the opposed agility check. for every 2 degrees of failure, he gets (-10) on this check.

The Delayed Half-action occurs in the order rolled (and is likely a shot after a quick-draw) and the rounds proceed as normal after this.

Should Dodging be allowed in this first 'round'? Is the willpower test required? Should it be single-shot only? Are the modifiers too big?



#4 FieserMoep

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:00 AM

 I never understood this fancy wild-west duels.

 

Its okay to stand 15 metres away from each other because it is quite hard to hit with such a revolver at further range. Totaly fine with that.

But why the hell are these duelists such idiots and WAIT till the other draws? You literaly have no benefit of waiting, you have no benefit of drawing last, only disadvantages. This is, in my opinion, some western and later hollywood myth.

Who draws first, shots first and maybe hits first. Why would you not draw first? To mess with the psyche of your enemy? Why should he allow you to intimidate him if he could easily shot you down?

In my group there was a metallican gunslinger, a war vet and a nasty hive ganger child wanted to duel him because he talked to his girl. The gunslinder said okay, drawed his gun and shot the ganger down. 

 

I might get that you want this kind of cinematic hollywood feeling but I see no point where this is more intimidating than pinning. I mean, being in a combat zone doesnt even give you that hard WP checks. Why should a duel do? Because its more personal? Well… I am more afraid of a ****** heavy bolter that fires at my position than of such kind of duel I only accepted because I think I might win it.



#5 Jeans_Stealer

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:29 PM

Through FieserMoep's displeasure, I can see a very valid point:

NO WILLPOWER CHECK. Okay so no perception either, so RAW. It seems that trying to make a cinematic set of rules for a Wild-West Style gunfight is to nobody's taste.

There was a snippet of a story I read online that human reactions are more ACCURATE than Human Actions (potentially getting the thing done faster.) but that's RL, not DH. 
Some players may actually WANT to wait, who knows? (Not everybody believes in the sense of 'Han Shot First') so I left it as an option, and offered it to the forum as a suggestion, not a house rule, for your input.

Okay so basically if they wish to quick-draw gunfight, likely it's simply a delayed action on both sides with some distance between them, or whatever suits the situation. Opposed agility test, done. Quick Draw over. whether it continues after the first shot, is up to the duellists. If they want to be intimidating while they duel, fine, I'll work it in.

…So…dodging allowed? by RAW it would be. I suppose since this idea is displeasing, probably best to leave it in.

 



#6 FieserMoep

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:21 AM

Dont get me wrong, it is always nice to have additional rules that are well made but as a GM I can tell you that when you start to create new rules for very few special situations you degrade the rules you use for the most time. As a Player I would question you what is so special about this duel that perception/WP or whatever tests are required. You might answer with well though arguments but at the same time you are creating more and more problems. The standard combat rules of DH are already very cinematic like, they are simplified for a good reason though they keep their thrill. If you take more an more realism into account this leads to new situations and problems. You cant isolate a gun duel from all other rules.

 

And about the dodge thing, keep in in the rules of your duel. Maybe you Acolythe duels with another Gunslinger to recieve the respect of a hive gang? They would be displeasured if he keeps dodging like a coward. But other Gangs might accept it. For example in europe pistol duels you had to stand still because it would be dishonorable to dodge or run away.



#7 Jeans_Stealer

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:50 AM

you see this is good, because it gives me pause to realise what's already in place.

 

You're right, I think the current rules will suffice - If the challenger simply delays, the player will have to think this might happen, and either delay himself or simply attempt to shoot him/her (and the challenger will activate their delay.)

The willpower/perception is gone, it was an attempt to increase the cinematic nature, but it shouldn't be about MORE tests.

You cleared this up, thank you.

 

Dodge - yep. nail on the head - if you dodge the bullets, you may piss off the gang that challenged you. (obviously, dodging in a European pistol duel is anethema to the honour.) a sword duel though… different. dodges and parries are all part of the glaze.

Thank you!



#8 Adeptus-B

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 07:14 AM

I don't see any way around using Initiative as the base. If only one deulist has Quickdraw, then of course he will go first; but if both have Quickdraw, I think it has to come down to an Initiative roll (and the possibility of spending a Fate Point to 'buy' a roll of '10'- how do you think Clint Eastwood always wins?). Since someone with Quickdraw can still Aim, maybe allow a duelist to give up that Half Action for +2 to Initiative…?



#9 Darth Smeg

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 07:29 PM

Well, a "problem" with the RAW is that on your initiative, you get a full action before your opponent can do anything at all.

So you can Quick-draw, Aim and shoot before the fellow win 1 lower initiative can act. 

We've had situations where ninja-shooters claim (with lightning-reflexes and rapid reaction)  they would be able to quick-draw and fire before the other fellow finished his aim. Or that if he didn't have quick-draw, would draw and fire before the first guy drew his gun. Especially if the higher-initative PC used Delay to await the NPX actions.

The rules don't work like this, you cannot interrupt another players sequence like this. (With the exception of Overwatch, I believe)


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#10 borithan

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:42 PM

As far as the whole "drawing first", I think allegedly it is about claims of self defence. If you draw second you are responding to their threat and so it is self defence… but then you can claim self defence preemptively (he was about to draw and shoot me, so I shot him first), but then I guess maybe in the context of an "agreed" duel that doesn't apply as you have both are engaged in premeditated violence. That or it is something to do with a sense of honour and bravado.

It was certainly the law enforcement and bravado issue in the Necromunda gunfight scenario. You kept rolling to see whose nerve broke first, and whose nerve broke first got first shot, but was more likely to be outlawed.

Truthfully, it wouldn't surprise me if it is just a convention of films. The traditional Western "gunfight" certainly is. The "Gunfight at the OK Corral" was actually point-blank shootout in an alley (probably starting about 6 feet apart), which probably lasted about 30 seconds. Not very glamorous.



#11 Jeans_Stealer

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 01:40 AM

Well I'm not seeing a case of initiative as the be-all-and-end-all.

Using the rules, this is what I see:

Roll initiative. If the NPC (for example) that challenged the player holds onto a delay action (and hopefully gets a chance to do so) as soon as the Player draws the NPC can just use his delay, getting a quickdraw (because otherwise the NPC wouldn't be duelling without this talent) and a shot for the half action that was delayed. The player can oppose this, but by the rules, only if they ALSO use a delay action, otherwise they'll draw and the NPC will get their delay and get a free shot first for free.

Forcing players to delay should not be a choice, but it's how an opposed agility test can decide who shoots first. otherwise, I'll just Delay the NPC and pull the delay the moment the Player draws.

I assume the first time I do it and get the free shot, the players wil delay every other time after that.



#12 BrotherKane

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 05:32 AM

It was indeed a law thing.  Drawing first meant you were on a murder charge rather than claiming self defence.  In many situations in DH this won't apply.  But where you do want to use it I would suggest something like the 5-rings duel system.

It is similar to your WP rolls but as you both succeed at WP checks it becomes harder to hit with the first shot.  This represents the tense situation getting to you.  Holding still for so long concentrating means when you finally spring into action it is harder to keep a steady hand etc.

The difference is if you fail your test the other guy gets to take the first shot.  This is him seeing you 'go for your gun'.  At any point you can call the other guy to make the first shot (because you think he won't make it).  So whoever shoots first gets the best chance of wounding but also shot first and takes all the consequences of that.  You can play around with the numbers to make it work mechanically.

I hasten to add I don't think this would be useful too often - unless you make it a stylistic point of your campaign/mission.



#13 Jeans_Stealer

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:22 AM

I suppose this is why they have arenas in Gunmetal city.

Yeah I wanted to add some sort of willpower part to it, but in the end the only way the game offers for affecting a character's nerves in combat would be pinning. I suppose the nerves actually play up in the concept of initiative rolling.

The idea of giving the NPC a Delay action (if there's time to do so) should make the duel interesting, as if the player character wins initiative, the moment he draws results in the NPC going first as he uses his delay (unless, the PC guesses, a delay is coming, and gets one ready himself) and so a genuine feeling of 'draw!' occurs.

Heh the idea of self-defence for some worlds would certainly make it interesting.



#14 PnPgamer

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:30 PM

maybe there could be a "blind" way to do it.

it could be made into some sort of guessing game, so that no need to insert willpower rolls.

also I think some duels were initiated when the town clock gonged first time, or something like that. A neutral party initiating the duel might be in order, like firing a gun upwards, a lady dropping a scarf and the duel initiates when it hits the ground etc.

 

 



#15 PnPgamer

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 02:54 AM

could other variables how to pull this thing out be thought out, please?

I'd really like a version that has no willpower tests.



#16 ordo neriman

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 10:01 AM

I watched a wildwest film which i'm sadly unable to recall the title but it revolved around a 1v1 dueling tournament that occured publicly in a town centre. The competitors and the spectators would meet shortly before the duel would begin(on the hour). The Duelists would take their marks imminent to the hour and then wait till the clock struck. During this short space of time they would obviously exchange insults, psyche each other out etc.

Just prior to the duel give them X amount of rounds each (a minute total worth?)  in which they can take it in turns to exchange insults, psyche each other out etc to achieve certain things such as modify the stats an opponent or possibly themselves, for the first shot or the entirety of the duel.

For example:

Zuriel Xanthis attempts to use his intimidate skill against Barak Attelus by staring at him darkly. (Full Action)

He gets a +10bonus for being a significantly more impressive physical specimen than his counterpart.

He successfully passes his skill check.

Barak Attelus is entitled to a willpower check to be unperturbed by Zuriel's stare.

He fails his willpower check and takes a -5 penalty to his ballistic skill test on his first shot as his hands begin to shake from being unnerved by Zuriel's stare.

Barak Attelus attempts a willpower check to regain composure and thus remove his current penalty (Full Action)…and so on

 

If Barak had the 'fearless' talent the GM could rule that he is therefore immune to intimidate checks made against him etc etc.

If Barak had critically failed his entitled willpower check this penalty could apply for the whole duel? etc etc

If Zuriel had rolled a 01 or by X amount of degrees the penalty incurred is -10 instead of -5? etc etc

 

I know it has willpower tests but it's simple in execution, it just depends how complicated or broad the choice of actions and their consequent effects you allow the duelists.



#17 PnPgamer

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 11:43 AM

hmm maybe instead of just intimidate, you could use blather for disctracting, bluffing for praising your own skills and so forth, opposed by scrutiny or int. Very much thanks.



#18 ordo neriman

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 05:20 PM

Indeed. Could even be really dirty and exploit Psychic Powers/Implants in this phase (Divine Shot/Weapon Jinx/logis Implant instantly springs to mind).

 

Here's my stab at the actual fighting part that could be applied to not just shoot outs but duels in general. It also has scope for than just 2 combatants. Please by all means expand upon, change and take what you will from it as its a suggestion as apposed to a final proposal.

 

THE DRAW (where abstractness and moving away from RAW is a tad more abundant).

 

Before rolling initiative each duelist confidentially with the GM makes only a single action (regardless of whether it is a full or half). Only being able to make a single action represents the fact that you only have a split second to put your opening gambit into motion, not a full round in which you have a luxurious 6 seconds to do multiple things like take the time to aim(half action) and shoot(half action). A second half/full action (depending on whether you have Quick Draw Talent) can only be taken if the first action is drawing a weapon. Reactions can be employed as normal.

Deciding what you're going to do before the initiative is rolled stops players from unrealistically, near precognitively, METAGAMINGLY, changing their action within a split second of gametime. E.g duelist 1 misses and the player of duelist 2 thinks 'aha he's missed, what i'll do is instead of shooting like I originally was going to do, I'm going to charge into combat with him because I'm actually a vastly inferior gunslinger but a melee monstrosity'. Everyone's action in the draw is considered to have happened at the same time therefore bonus/penalties of everyone's actions apply such as a Quick Drawing, Hipshooting Hard Target giving everyone a minus to hit him as he speedily dashes sideways and aims at his foe in his opening gambit even though he's gone last. You could rule that duelists with Rapid Reaction or that have employed certain precognitive psychic powers may be able overrule this and change their action accordingly.

Roll Initiative. Players then reveal their gambit and are executed in initiative order.

Although Technically happening simutaneously, If one duelist beats an opponent by more than the first digit of that opponent's agility stat then they have noticeably managed to draw before them (for determining first blood). Otherwise, the referees/audience must make a perception test to clearly discern who was quicker. This covers the possibility that two opposing Ace Gunslingers may have such fast reflexes that its hard for the average human eye to discern who shot first in such a miniscule space of time(Hive World Arenas may have motion cameras and action replay to remove human falliability). Likewise the reverse when two untrained civilians duel and everything is unimpressively slow and easy for the human eye to trace.

After this, normal combat ensues and everyone rerolls initiative as possible initiative penalties incurred from the preduel psyche out (Discussed in my previous post) that only affected the First Shot/Draw.

 

Although moving a wee bit off of RAW, hopefully this and the previous phase I posted should allow the GM and players fair way in which they can maximise and apply their talents/traits/implants/powers/skills in simple executed steps and without too much effort to learn both phases. May your Ace Gunslinger reduce his opponents to nervous wrecks with his dark stares and charismatic quips, rapidly crush multiple lesser duelists before they can blink, impressively duel with an equal or get caught offguard by an opponent with an unsanctioned ace up his sleeve.



#19 Jeans_Stealer

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 12:31 AM

AH now you see that is nice. The Players involved in the Shootout have to decide what they're going to do with their full action before it occurs, and cannot change their decision to remove metagaming. I like it! (it will likely just be quickdraw-aim-shoot though.)

That's good, thank you for that addition.






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