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Lathe Wrougt Armour Upgrade


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#1 Fresnel

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 07:59 AM

 Hostile Aquisitions:

Is this really something you can buy to upgrade existing armour? I think not from the text, but then what is the process?

It looks to me that you acquire Lathe Wrought Carapace or Power Armour directly. Whether carapace or power armour the availability is Near Unique. In addition it cannot be acquired at less than Best Quality. So the acquisition roll is at -50 for 1 off.

Is this right?



#2 Fgdsfg

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:21 AM

You cannot upgrade pre-existing armour with Lathe Wrought. It specifically says that each is created by commission for a wearer. It doesn't mean that it has to have been created for YOU specifically, but it does imply that it's not an upgrade you'd just get - at the very least, then, you'd have to give them an armour that they would make Lathe-Wrought for you, which would require you to actually commission one yourself.

That said, the fact that they are Best-craftmanship is, likely, just like all other items where it says "This item is always considered <whatever> quality", already taken into account for availability. So you do not need to adjust availability based on quality.

For items with upgrades, you take the availability of the rarest component, and then add -5 to the Acquisition Roll for each added component.

In this case, since Lathe-Wrought is Near Unique, let's assume that it is the rarest component. That would be:

Availability - Near Unique: -50.
Scale - Negligible: +30.
Upgrade: -5.

For an adjustment of -25.

Unless I screwed something up, but if I did, I'm sure someone will point it out.


Real men earn their fun

Unified WH40kRP Ruleset Homebrew - Personal Notes
Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#3 Fresnel

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:25 AM

I have missed the rule that "if the quality is dictated in the text then don't apply any quality modifier". Can you point me to this?

I see the combined acquisition rule. But this would make Lathe Wrought Armour an eye-watering -55 as far as I can see, but then it is awesome…

 



#4 Amaimon

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:18 PM

 I dont think you add bonus for small quantity when buying stuff of near unique or unique availibity. That maybe an optional rule thou. 



#5 Fresnel

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:27 PM

So the modifier is either -25, -55 or -85…

Anyone else?



#6 PantsCommander

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 04:42 AM

You definately don't get Scale bonus on Unique or Near Unique items (page 276, uppper right corner), and I think the wording on Lathe Wrought makes it seem that it carries all the benefits of Best Craftsmanship ("inherently Best Craftsmanship") that it would be counted as included in the Availability of the upgrade, so my instinct is -55.



#7 Zenoth16

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 05:20 AM

Fgdsfg said:

For items with upgrades, you take the availability of the rarest component, and then add -5 to the Acquisition Roll for each added component.

Where is that ruling found? I have been looking for it and can't seem to find it.



#8 Fgdsfg

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 08:17 AM

Zenoth16 said:

Fgdsfg said:

For items with upgrades, you take the availability of the rarest component, and then add -5 to the Acquisition Roll for each added component.

Where is that ruling found? I have been looking for it and can't seem to find it.

Rogue Trader Core Rulebook, pg. 271, right-hand column, "Combining Acquisitions".

PantsCommander said:

You definately don't get Scale bonus on Unique or Near Unique items (page 276, uppper right corner), and I think the wording on Lathe Wrought makes it seem that it carries all the benefits of Best Craftsmanship ("inherently Best Craftsmanship") that it would be counted as included in the Availability of the upgrade, so my instinct is -55.

Well, completely missed that. Thanks a lot for the point in the right direction. Would definitely makes any Lathe-Wrought armour -55. Yikes.

Fresnel said:

I have missed the rule that "if the quality is dictated in the text then don't apply any quality modifier". Can you point me to this?

I see the combined acquisition rule. But this would make Lathe Wrought Armour an eye-watering -55 as far as I can see, but then it is awesome…

You know, I can't for the life of me find it. I'm sure of it, though, or at least it's been discussed before.

I sent a question to Customer Support just to make sure. I'll post here once I get a reply.


Real men earn their fun

Unified WH40kRP Ruleset Homebrew - Personal Notes
Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#9 susanbrindle

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 08:23 AM

Zenoth16 said:

Fgdsfg said:

 

For items with upgrades, you take the availability of the rarest component, and then add -5 to the Acquisition Roll for each added component.

 

Where is that ruling found? I have been looking for it and can't seem to find it.

 

Page 271. Combining Acquisitions Some items can be upgraded or modified to combine two or more items together, such as a laspistol with a red-dot laser sight. In this case, when testing to acquire the combined item, compare the Availability of the item’s components and use the greatest penalty to determine a base Availability Modifier. Each additional component then results in an additional –5 penalty to the base Availability Modifier.



#10 Fresnel

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:45 AM

On the subject of indicated quality:

Into the Storm p138: All item under 'The Exotic and Alien' are automatically Good Craftmanship - Common and Poor versions are likely frauds.

I see nothing to indicate that the quality modifier is ignored. So, for example, a Blurshield - Near Unique (-50) - must be acquired at Good quality (-10) and cannot benefit from the Trivial (-30) modifier as its 'Near Unique'. So this gives a total PF modifier of -60.

Essentially this puts such gear out of reach of many PCs - which is fine of course. It will be interesting to find if this is fully intended…  



#11 Amaimon

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:50 AM

 Generally if description says that something is good or best quality, the cost of that is already included in the printed avalibility of the item. Don't modify it further. So blurshield is near unique, and the final modifier is -50. 



#12 Fresnel

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:35 AM

This has been said before, but it appears to be wishful thinking.

Unless you can point us to the page/paragraph where is this stated… Or you can get the issue clarified by FFG support. However, as far as I can see the rules are clear, quality modifiers apply. 



#13 Fgdsfg

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:36 AM

Fresnel said:

This has been said before, but it appears to be wishful thinking.

Unless you can point us to the page/paragraph where is this stated… Or you can get the issue clarified by FFG support. However, as far as I can see the rules are clear, quality modifiers apply. 

I've sent a message to them, but for some reason, it's taking forever to get an answer this time. Last time, it took less than 24 hours. This time it's been almost a week.


Real men earn their fun

Unified WH40kRP Ruleset Homebrew - Personal Notes
Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#14 Objulen

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:26 PM

While having set in stone ruling can be nice, I don't think it's really necessary unless you're dealing with problem players/GMs. For example, If we already assume that you don't add the template bonuses from good and best qualify equipment when the item description states that it already taken into account, then why would we assume that the availability hasn't been modified? 

Further, even if the item doesn't have the modified bonuses built in, you can't go above near-unique, so I'd say there are several items that demonstrait that the availablility is already taken into account with the built-in quality bonus. The difference between standard Carpace Armor and the Lathe armor mentioned above is a good example -- if memory serves, Carpace Armor and even Power Armor is not Near Unique. 

 



#15 Fresnel

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:24 PM

Firstly, this is the 'Rules Questions' section…

If the item description said it had been accounted for there would be no issue. What we have is a mandated quality in RAW and no rule to say that the quality modifiers are ignored. Therefore I think we must conclude that the quality modifiers are applied at the mandated level. This leads to very high modifiers in many cases.

The idea that the quality modifiers are ignored in these cases is widely held, but is not RAW.

 



#16 Fgdsfg

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:28 AM


Real men earn their fun

Unified WH40kRP Ruleset Homebrew - Personal Notes
Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#17 Cryhavok

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:07 AM

Fgdsfg said:

Nice, finally and end to this silly arguement.
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#18 Fresnel

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:21 AM

Fgdsfg said:

 

 

 

 

Cheers. Hopefully this will make it to the FAQ.






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