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Do obstacles count as exploring?


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#1 Musha Shukou

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:54 PM

 Sorry for the double post, I accidentally posted this in the wrong place..

I ask this question after experiencing Joe Diamond's Magnifying Glass starting item. When Joe Diamond encounters a puzzle obstacle, if obstacles count as exploring, then he may attempt the puzzle twice. Is this actually the case?

If so, if he doesn't finish the puzzle on those 2 attempts, then on his next turn attempting the same puzzle obstacle, does this STILL count as exploring and he gets ANOTHER 2 attempts at this puzzle?

Somebody please clarify this for me.



#2 amikezor

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:54 PM

 I'd say yes he can.


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#3 Dam

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 11:02 PM

Musha Shukou said:

I ask this question after experiencing Joe Diamond's Magnifying Glass starting item. When Joe Diamond encounters a puzzle obstacle, if obstacles count as exploring, then he may attempt the puzzle twice. Is this actually the case?

Not quite:

"Each investigator can only attempt the same puzzle once per turn
(but multiple investigators may attempt the same puzzle on the
same turn)." (p. 18)


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#4 amikezor

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:37 AM

Dam said:

Musha Shukou said:

 

I ask this question after experiencing Joe Diamond's Magnifying Glass starting item. When Joe Diamond encounters a puzzle obstacle, if obstacles count as exploring, then he may attempt the puzzle twice. Is this actually the case?

 

 

Not quite:

"Each investigator can only attempt the same puzzle once per turn
(but multiple investigators may attempt the same puzzle on the
same turn)." (p. 18)

Dam = eagle eye. well digged.


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#5 Musha Shukou

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 07:26 AM

 Well, yes. But isn't that just a rule standard? And isn't that why an investigator's special ability is a special ability? 'Cause it allows exceptions to the rule standards? So, instead of answering if Joe Diamond can do the puzzle twice in a turn, the question at the base here is:  "Does encountering an obstacle count as exlporing?"



#6 Dam

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 08:22 AM

To start revealing cards in a room, you need to make an Explore Action. And it's not an investigator's special ability, it's from an Item (that can be traded to another investigator). Exception is that with the MG you get 2 Move + 1 Explore + 1 action.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#7 Musha Shukou

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 07:28 PM

 Right. So let me rephrase my question then. Exploring IS an action. When you use the MG to explore and you encounter a puzzle obstacle and can't finish it, why can't you perform the explore action again as your +1 action and do the puzzle again?



#8 Dam

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 08:50 PM

Because they (FFG) surprisingly seem to have covered the possibility of multiple Explores by the same investigator in the rules by allowing each inv to only attempt a puzzle once per turn (turn, not per Explore). Technically, you could Explore, have MG, fail puzzle and use the MG's extra action to Explore, but couldn't attempt the puzzle a second time (basically a wasted action).


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#9 TEnOTT

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:21 AM

I'm still not sure what Musha Shukou's point is, but I hope these approach can help.

---

First, I think the Lock cards are the good example to understand why the multiple puzzle attempts from the single investigator is disabled. It is related to the game speed. 

  • Of course, as we know, if an investigator fails to unlock a certain door, his movement step is wasted and he cannot move into that room this turn. (Page 8)

If we ignore this rule, each investigator can attempt to unlock a door 3 times. (using Action as Run) Several investigators have Intellect 7, which allows that investigator to use 21 puzzle movements (without skill point), making almost all the puzzle Lock cards useless. Keeper will cry. 

Second, I think the MG's special ability and the attempt rule is not related. I think Musha Shukou claims the 'SPECIAL ABILITY' should be above all the rules and ignore any other rule standards against it. But the MG's ability enables 'ADDITIONAL ACTION', and the attempt rule disables 'PUZZLE ATTEMPT', so I think the MG's ability is not against the attempt rule. As Dam described, the investigator will fall into the situation that he explores again, automatically fails the puzzle, and ends his explore action.

Third, if that investigator still wants the MG's ability fully applied, he should consider another choices. Because I play as a Keeper a lot, I always consider Joe Diamond as an investigator who can explore 2 rooms a turn, with Move - Explore - Move - Explore. Run or Attack action can also be a good choice. Even Drop action can be useful, because MG goes upon the explore pile OVER THAT OBSTACLE, and next explorer can get a free action. 

In addition, the highest Intellect, Harvey Walters and Kate Winthrop have, is 6~7. Joe has Intellect 5~6. It's high enough!



#10 Dam

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:47 PM

TEnOTT said:

Third, if that investigator still wants the MG's ability fully applied, he should consider another choices. Because I play as a Keeper a lot, I always consider Joe Diamond as an investigator who can explore 2 rooms a turn, with Move - Explore - Move - Explore. Run or Attack action can also be a good choice. Even Drop action can be useful, because MG goes upon the explore pile OVER THAT OBSTACLE, and next explorer can get a free action. 

I'd say this isn't valid. IIRC, MG says you have to immediately take the extra action, so you'd have to do your second action in the same room as your Explore. Most posters on BGG seem to have this view:

www.boardgamegeek.com/article/6854091#6854091

www.boardgamegeek.com/article/7553041#7553041

Especially if the word "immediately" is on the card is mentioned in those posts, very much read that as the extra Action from MG has to be done as the next action after the Explore, no Move possible if you want the extra Action.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."





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