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Play both sides in tournament?


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#1 Fredrik

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:25 PM

 Hello

 

What do you guys think of the idea that each match in a tournament consists of 2 matches. Each player play both rebels and empire.

I believe that this would bring the more skillfull player to the top and make it little harder for them who choose one team and just dream tacticts whit just them.

And there would not be any rebel on rebel fights and so on.

On the down side the tournament would take much longer time.

 

What is your thougts?

 

//Fredrik



#2 ArcticSnake

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:29 PM

That sounds just like Counter-Strike tournaments!


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#3 Major Mishap

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 12:30 AM

That would be my prefered method as having Luke V Luke battles is a bit far fetched but it may be asking a bit much for players to fork out so much on these expensive models.



#4 Stormtrooper721

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 01:04 AM

I'd prefer just playing my TIE Fighters. I'm a loyal Imperial. Though it would get me to play the Millennium Falcon more when I get my hands on it! 


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#5 dbmeboy

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 04:21 AM

 I love the concept, but I see 2 problems:

1) Much more expensive. You'd have to maintain 2 fleets.

2) Logistics - matches would take twice as long, so either tournaments would take much longer or you'd only get half the matches.



#6 Melkor503

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 05:47 AM

 I have never been to a big tournament.  Is it common for the "World Champ" to play all factions during a tournament?  The tourneys that I have played locally just ask that you bring 1 build, and do your best with that build.

I understand that there are only 2 factions to play in X-Wing so asking each player to bring 2 builds is not completely out of the question.  It just seems that this is in direct opposition to how all the other game tournaments are run.  Not to get too crazy, but what would happen if the game expanded and the Republic and Separatists were added to the available factions?  Would we then ask the "World Champ" to play 4 builds?

 

Just my 2 cents… 



#7 Fredrik

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 08:39 AM

 Is the normal to just have one fleet and compete against others? Around here not meny others have the game so i think most people have one set of complete game to play home with friends.

Is tournaments common in US?



#8 Picasso

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 08:42 AM

 I've been debating this idea of two lists all weekend. I'm jumping ship and switching sides. I say leave it alone.  Worlds ran fine.  Your list should be able to compete no matter what you face. As I get ready for the Kessel Run I'm tweaking my list for this.  Also having played with some of the cards from the Falcon set Empire vs Empire won't be a problem come GenCon. 

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#9 Major Mishap

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:40 AM

dbmeboy said:

 I love the concept, but I see 2 problems:

1) Much more expensive. You'd have to maintain 2 fleets.

2) Logistics - matches would take twice as long, so either tournaments would take much longer or you'd only get half the matches.

2) The tournemant and games take the same amount of time, all it means is that you don't have blue on blue, nothing else changes - same number of games, same amount of time.



#10 Tawnos

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:46 AM

If you focus solely on the tactics of a single faction to the exclusion of the other, you're seriously gimping yourself.  In order to play your best against either Empire or Rebels, you have to know how a Rebel/Empire player thinks, what their standard tactics are, and have a good feel for the abilities and weaknesses of the pilots.  The best way to do that is to play both sides regularly.

That being said, while I like the idea of playing both sides at a tourney, I think there are too many cons to doing so for it to be feasible.

  1. Prep time is doubled, as you now have to practice with two squads instead of one.
  2. Cost (though I suspect this isn't a huge deal, as most tourney players have enough minis for a squad on either side)
  3. Tournament length
  4. Faction loyalty (some of us are loyal sons of the Empire, and others are Rebel scum)


#11 CaptainRook

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 11:07 AM

From experience, these sort of tournaments do work, just don't make them the normal pattern.  Keep in mind, while you have the potential for 'Clone Wars'(heh heh), that is also something a player has to consider when building a list.  You may be in the middle of a civil war, fighting the same kind of gear you brought.  So you can't just immediately rely on the TieSwarm to win the game, because there may be 8 TIEs just like yours on the other side of the table.  This game uses few enough miniatures that a multi-faction tournament is entirely plausible and hardly unmanageable.  As I have run this sort of tournament in the past with several different games, I know they work, but again, I advise against doing them regularly.


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#12 Chairborne

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 11:28 AM

My 2 cents for Tournaments is this:

Each player should bring 2 builds with him. 1 Reb, 1 Imp. At the start of the match the players roll a die to see who is the attacker. The winner (Attacker) chooses what force he wants to use, Reb or Imp. The other player then has to take the other side. This avoids Blue on Blue games.

 

To try to fight the same opponent twice, switching sides for the second game is just not practical time wise. 

 

With a roll off, each side has an equal chance to play the side they prefer. In reality, for the good player, it will not matter as they will be proficient with both forces. It would be preferable that the roll is done before either player discloses what their lists contain, but a player that does his Recon properly will know what his opponent has in advance.

 

 dbmeboy brought up the issue of cost..  I totally disagree with this. For  a miniatures game, X-Wing is dirt cheep!  I wont go Shadowjak on you with a breakdown on this but consider the two most expensive builds, monetarily. For the purpose of this exercise I will be using full Retail in U.S. Dollars.

Core Set to play: $40

5 Y-Wings (5@$15) $75

6 TIE Fighters (6@$15) $90

Total: $205

Your Rebel Force would be 5 Gold Squadron Y-Wings and your Imperial force would be 8 Academy Pilots.

 

Lets face it, who in their right mind would take these?  Okay, I worded that badly. Who in their right mind would take both of these to a tourney?

 

Reality would be more along these lines:

Core Set: (2@$40) $80

1 X-Wing $15

1 Y-Wing $15

1 TIE Fighter $15

1 TIE Advanced $15

Total: $140

 

You can do a Rebel build with 3 X-wings and 1 Y-Wing and for the Imperials 1 TIE Advanced and 5 TIE fighters. Two solid 100 points builds.

 

Now, I have been called a "Win at all cost, power gaming Tournament *****" in another game system. So I may be speaking out of turn here but $150 to be able to take two forces to a tourney is not out of line, IMHO.

 

As cheep as these figs are and as compact as the game travels, I see no reason why this should not be implemented.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

James



#13 Magnus3740

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:00 AM

In chess tournaments players are paired so that they play white an equal number of times during the tournament.  So of four rounds, you'd play as white twice and black twice.  The same concept could be applied to X-Wing if players bring two fleets.  It just takes a bit more work to pair people, or use a tournament program that does the pairing for you.  Obviously, it works better if you have an even number or rounds, but it can work fairly well in an odd number as well.  You'd just have to play 2:1 games as green:red, while your friend would play 1:2.  

The tournament won't take any longer, players set up and move their fleets between rounds no matter if they bring 1 or 2 fleets.



#14 Grape Starburst

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:05 AM

Magnus3740 said:

In chess tournaments players are paired so that they play white an equal number of times during the tournament.  So of four rounds, you'd play as white twice and black twice.  The same concept could be applied to X-Wing if players bring two fleets.  It just takes a bit more work to pair people, or use a tournament program that does the pairing for you.  Obviously, it works better if you have an even number or rounds, but it can work fairly well in an odd number as well.  You'd just have to play 2:1 games as green:red, while your friend would play 1:2.  

The tournament won't take any longer, players set up and move their fleets between rounds no matter if they bring 1 or 2 fleets.

 

If they're going to make people play both sides in a tourny this probably makes the most sense. I used to play the old Decipher card game and for that one you had to play both sides against the same player with a combined score for the 2 games per round and those tournies took forever.



#15 DrUnK3n_PaNdA

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 08:58 AM

I agree with the OP actually, it would be more expensive, but let's be honest who doesn't have… or doesn't intend to have two fleets already. However, overlooking price and time, the other problem is that a 2 game match is indecisive for a tournament. What if both players win once? Having two 45 minute games during each tournament match wouldn't be too bad at all, but doing 2 out of 3 as you'd have to would be rather impossible. Looking at 3 rounds, plus a top 4 and grand final… that's going to be an 11 hour, 15 minute tournament. Most stores aren't open long enough to run a beast like that, and even though I love me some X-Wing, chances are after 11 hours of it people would either start getting very bored or going slightly insane.

However, for a league? The idea is brilliant. There's more than enough time to play a couple 2 out of 3 league matches in an evening and that gives plenty of opportunity for players to try their hand at both sides to see who the best is, not the one with the flavor of the week build.

I like the idea from Chess tournaments even more. I think playing Rebs and Imps an equal number of times in any given tournament would probably be the best solution if people like the idea of playing both sides. I might try running this format in the future to see how things go with it.



#16 dbmeboy

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:57 AM

DrUnK3n_PaNdA said:

I like the idea from Chess tournaments even more. I think playing Rebs and Imps an equal number of times in any given tournament would probably be the best solution if people like the idea of playing both sides. I might try running this format in the future to see how things go with it.

I could see this happening and would support it.



#17 Hrathen

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 05:04 PM

 I played in the GenCon Tournament.  I played an Imperial list as so did every one of my oppnants.  Granted it was literally the first day any of us had played the game (it went on sale at Gencon that morning) but many of the games were pretty boring.  Imperials specifically have good defenses and not as good attack.  Add our inexpereince and we had some very unbloody conflicts.  I loved the game and I enjoyed the tournament, but I was dissatisfied with the Imp on Imp action.

I think one of my first posts on this very forum suggested that Tournaments should require every one to bring two lists and it so there no blue on blue fights.

Since that time I have had many more oppertunites to play, but they have all been friendly pick up games, and those battles have always been Imperials vs Rebels.  These games have been more fun.

That all having been said, I think I could put a list together (for either faction, though I tend to fly Imperial) that would be fun in a tournament even if I ended up only fighitng my same faction again.

I actually enjoy, little rule changes in tournaments that make things different and fun.  So I don't think that every tournament should require each player to bring two different squadrons, it would be fun.

I think a tournament where you sign up as Rebel or Imperial, and the whole tournament could be structured like a small war, where you only ever fight the other side and in the end there could be either an overall Imperial of Rebel victory.  This sort of thing might work better for a loca


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#18 Hrathen

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 05:07 PM

 Sorry something happened my ability to type.

Like was saying a Imperial vs Rebel war tournament would probably work better in a local gaming club then a competative tournament.  But it would be fun.  Now that I think of it I might just try to get something like that organized at my local store.


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#19 R5Don4

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:26 AM

Hrathen said:

 Sorry something happened my ability to type.

Like was saying a Imperial vs Rebel war tournament would probably work better in a local gaming club then a competative tournament.  But it would be fun.  Now that I think of it I might just try to get something like that organized at my local store.

 

As a format I think it is a great option.  This game is very versatile with many different ways to play.  At the most competitive level though, the play one squad for the entire tournament format is definitely the way to go.  A good squad and player should be able to win against any opposing force.


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#20 Magnus3740

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:01 AM

 I used Swiss Perfect for my tournament software previously.  It has a black/white option in there, as well as a team option.  I believe the team option allows you to always pair the best Imperial against the best rebel.  It is free for a month, and is a great way to try out a new format or two.  






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