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The Kindly Man


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#1 Mariano

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:56 AM

If The Kindly Man would be killed, instead attach him to your House card as your only agenda with the text:
"Response: After you win an [Intrigue] or [Power] challenge, choose a non-unique character in any dead or discard pile and put it into play under your control. At the end of the phase, discard that character if it is still in play. (Limit once per phase.)"

 

Here my question: What means would be killed?? Goes this Character Moribound ?? Or will he direktly attached as an Agenda when i Coose him to Die ??

 

 



#2 Mariano

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:00 AM

Mariano said:

If The Kindly Man would be killed, instead attach him to your House card as your only agenda with the text:
"Response: After you win an [Intrigue] or [Power] challenge, choose a non-unique character in any dead or discard pile and put it into play under your control. At the end of the phase, discard that character if it is still in play. (Limit once per phase.)"

 

Here my question: What means would be killed?? Goes this Character Moribound ?? Or will he direktly attached as an Agenda when i Coose him to Die ??

 

 One more Question: Can Arya Stark trigger her Ability for the Kindly man ??

Because her Ability is: After a Unique [Stark] character is killed, discard Arya Stark from play (cannot be saved) to choose and kill a character with STR 3 or less.

What means after in this way after step 6 or when a character is Moribound ???



#3 Khudzlin

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:18 AM

He goes moribund->agenda instead of moribund->dead when an effect kills him while his controller has no agenda.



#4 Mariano

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 06:58 AM

One more Question: Can Arya Stark trigger her Ability for the Kindly man ??

Because her Ability is: After a Unique [Stark] character is killed, discard Arya Stark from play (cannot be saved) to choose and kill a character with STR 3 or less.

What means AFTER in this way after step 6 or when a character is Moribound ???

So the kindly man is not going Moribound!!! Arya can´t trigger her Ability because the kindly man is attached as an Agenda Correct ???



#5 Vaapad

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:22 AM

 I think that's correct - arya cannot trigger because KM was not killed.  Per the FAQ, I believe that arya's response would trigger in step 5 of the action window in which a stark character becomes moribund:dead.  KM would have been moribund:dead except for his passive that makes him go moribund:agenda when he otherwise would have been moribund:dead.  TBH though, I'm not 100% on whether that's all technically correct, so someone by all means tell me if i got it wrong.


"And for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons."

#6 Khudzlin

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:10 AM

Actually, even if the Kindly Man becomes moribund->agenda instead of moribund->dead, he has still been killed, because it is the effect itself that counts, rather than the final destination. So Arya can definitely trigger.



#7 Vaapad

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 01:56 AM

Khudzlin said:

Actually, even if the Kindly Man becomes moribund->agenda instead of moribund->dead, he has still been killed, because it is the effect itself that counts, rather than the final destination. So Arya can definitely trigger.

 

hmm.  If KM said, "if the kindly man IS killed …" then that makes perfect sense, but why would they write "would be killed" to mean "is killed"? Would be, to me, implies "instead"; KM is chosen to die for mil claim and "would be" killed under normal circumstances; but because of KM's text he is not killed and instead is attached to your house card.  Maybe there is an official ruling I missed on this, and if i'll so chalk it up to Matt's "some rules don't made sense" thread, but where am I going wrong?


"And for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons."

#8 ktom

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 02:11 AM

Vaapad said:

hmm.  If KM said, "if the kindly man IS killed …" then that makes perfect sense, but why would they write "would be killed" to mean "is killed"? Would be, to me, implies "instead"; KM is chosen to die for mil claim and "would be" killed under normal circumstances; but because of KM's text he is not killed and instead is attached to your house card.  Maybe there is an official ruling I missed on this, and if i'll so chalk it up to Matt's "some rules don't made sense" thread, but where am I going wrong?
There is official ruling. You always look at the effect that removes the card from play - and Respond to that. You do not look at where the card ends up. With the character agendas, the effect that removes it from play is whatever killed it, not it's own text saying to use it as an agenda instead of putting it in the dead pile after it is killed.

Look at it this way: the event card "Forever Burning" has the keyword "Deathbound," so it ends up in the dead pile when you play it instead of the discard pile. So, does that mean you killed the event instead of playing it from your hand? If so, you'd better stop using Paper Shield to cancel it.



#9 Vaapad

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 12:53 PM

ktom said:

Vaapad said:

Look at it this way: the event card "Forever Burning" has the keyword "Deathbound," so it ends up in the dead pile when you play it instead of the discard pile. So, does that mean you killed the event instead of playing it from your hand? If so, you'd better stop using Paper Shield to cancel it.

 

That's not my issue; I'm not of the belief that a character (or card, in your example) is killed if and only if it ends up in the dead pile.  Rather, I'm concerned with the conditional verb tense "would be" and its juxtaposition with the simple present tense "is" on Arya's response.  KM could have been worded, "after Kindly Man is killed, attach it to your house card as your only agenda . . . . "  That would make perfect sense; KM is killed, but goes to the house card instead of the dead pile.  Easy.  Instead, FFG decided to use the phrase "would be killed," and I guess I'm curious as to why.  The conditional "would be" implies that what was going to happen (KM being killed) did not, and something else happened instead.  I understand that there's been a ruling and that's fine, but I don't think the language of the card supports the ruling.

Take this example: A schoolteacher gives her students a test.  However, thinking after the fact that it was too hard, the teacher decides that if any student would fail, the grade would be rounded up to a 65 (a passing grade).  The teacher scores my test and counts 60 points.  Did I fail?


"And for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons."

#10 ktom

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:01 AM

The "would be" primarily moves the replacement from the initiation to the resolution of the effect. The effect initiates as a kill, so you have the opportunity to save from a kill effect. Then, when the effect resolves, you do something different than usual is done with it.

Also, the basic timing of a Response such as Arya's (which happens after the resolution of another effect is completely done with) and a replacement effect such as The Kindly Man's (which takes place as the resolution of another effect is in process) pretty well calls for a different verb tense. That difference in the timing of action necessarily calls for a different verb tense.

Vaapad said:

Take this example: A schoolteacher gives her students a test.  However, thinking after the fact that it was too hard, the teacher decides that if any student would fail, the grade would be rounded up to a 65 (a passing grade).  The teacher scores my test and counts 60 points.  Did I fail?
Well, to make this completely analogous, you have to look at a Response to the passing/failing grade, since what we're really concerned with here is how the replaced effect is treated for the sake of which Response effects can be used. Say the school has a policy of "after a student receives a failing grade on a test, they are eligible for a free tutoring session." Are you eligible for free extra help? And what about the students who scored 50 or 40 or 30, who were also bumped up to 65? Are they eligible for the extra help? Whether or not "fail" is written in the teacher's grade book, should they be?






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