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Station Eismette/Deranged Diva


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#1 AUCodeMonkey

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:14 PM

  

So let's say that my opponent (I refuse to acknowledge I'm married to her for this argument) has Stupid Station Eismette in play, as well as some unnamed OVERPOWERED Explorers, probably brought into play with stupid ULTIMA THULE. I play a Deranged Diva. I target her and drive Deranged Diva insane. She now has to make someone insane right? Even if all she has is a dumb Explorer that has no Willpower? The triggered ability targetted the player, NOT the character, so I'm hoping she, er, my opponent, doesn't have a peg leg to stand on.

EDIT: My opponent, thinking this is relevant information, wants people to know that this would not have changed the outcome of this game. He/she may be right; I still would've forfeited to Antarctic Explorers from Hell.



#2 dboeren

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:45 PM

Correct, Station Eismitte would not protect her in this case as you aren't targeting her character with your ability.



#3 .Zephyr.

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 10:30 AM

 Explorers are immune to effect.

IMO: Effect occurs, but as explorers are immune to it there is no legal target so its like if no characters ware in play - nothing happens.

FAQ on immune:

Some cards have the card text “Immune to X” in their text boxes. This means that they cannot be targeted by cards with that subtype and/or card type. This also means that if a card with that subtype and card type does not target a specific character, but affects all characters or a group of characters, these cards ignores that effect. For example: Alaskan Sledge Dog (Mountains of Madness F16) reads “Immune to Polar events.” This means that the card cannot by targeted by any event cards with the Polar subtype. In addition, if there was a card effect with the Polar subtype that affects all characters, Alaskan Sledge Dog would not be affected.



#4 marcoa.ramirez@gmail.com

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:19 AM

.Zephyr. said:

FAQ on immune:

 

Some cards have the card text “Immune to X” in their text boxes. This means that they cannot be targeted by cards with that subtype and/or card type. This also means that if a card with that subtype and card type does not target a specific character, but affects all characters or a group of characters, these cards ignores that effect. For example: Alaskan Sledge Dog (Mountains of Madness F16) reads “Immune to Polar events.” This means that the card cannot by targeted by any event cards with the Polar subtype. In addition, if there was a card effect with the Polar subtype that affects all characters, Alaskan Sledge Dog would not be affected.

 

 

I think explorer are not inmunes.Derange dive not choose a card, choose a player. That player must choose a character, this character is targeted by a player, not was targeted by a card.



#5 dboeren

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 12:58 PM

.Zephyr. said:

FAQ on immune:

 

Some cards have the card text “Immune to X” in their text boxes. This means that they cannot be targeted by cards with that subtype and/or card type. This also means that if a card with that subtype and card type does not target a specific character, but affects all characters or a group of characters, these cards ignores that effect.

The character isn't being targeted.  The card doesn't affect all characters, nor does it affect a group of characters.  I still think we're clear here.



#6 HilariousPete

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 02:39 AM

I think Station Eismitte protects Explorers. That the Diva's triggered ability isn't targeting the character doesn't matter. The point is that it effects a group of cards. Groups can consist of only one single member. (For example, the empty set and sets with only 1 member are also sets.) Here, this group is the character that is chosen by the targeted player.



#7 .Zephyr.

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:32 AM

 I pasted the FAQ fragment…

"This also means that if a card with that subtype and card type does not target a specific character, but affects all characters or a group of characters, these cards ignores that effect."

Sounds quite clear for me.

All description is made to say that those characters are effect proof - it doesn't affect them, even if it doesnt require targeting but is "all characters" it is interpreted as "all other characters". 

edit:

hmm this "choose player" makes some sense, but it feels like lawyering through some hole in immune description to me, hmm i wonder what would official response be. Saying that if "player chooses" it doesn't count because FAQ doesn't use that wording sounds fishy to me, but i can see it ruled like that and errated after a bit of thought. Seriously why make characters immune to all effects, but effects that let player choose are an exception and youre not protected from them… i makes no sense to me.

edit2:

in this line of thought FAQ mentions only subtype immunity so the MU card shouldnt work at all as it doesnt referr to subtype/card type immunity but triggered effects - effect type immunity thet is not covered there; but maybe this player targetting has some more complicated interactions that would need further claryfication



#8 dboeren

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:47 AM

Need to ask Damon for a ruling then since there isn't a consensus.



#9 Loprw

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:08 AM

.Zephyr. said:

 I pasted the FAQ fragment…

"This also means that if a card with that subtype and card type does not target a specific character, but affects all characters or a group of characters, these cards ignores that effect."

Sounds quite clear for me.

All description is made to say that those characters are effect proof - it doesn't affect them, even if it doesnt require targeting but is "all characters" it is interpreted as "all other characters". 

edit:

hmm this "choose player" makes some sense, but it feels like lawyering through some hole in immune description to me, hmm i wonder what would official response be. Saying that if "player chooses" it doesn't count because FAQ doesn't use that wording sounds fishy to me, but i can see it ruled like that and errated after a bit of thought. Seriously why make characters immune to all effects, but effects that let player choose are an exception and youre not protected from them… i makes no sense to me.

edit2:

in this line of thought FAQ mentions only subtype immunity so the MU card shouldnt work at all as it doesnt referr to subtype/card type immunity but triggered effects - effect type immunity thet is not covered there; but maybe this player targetting has some more complicated interactions that would need further claryfication

 

First, sorry for my bad english.

 

Second, i believe Deranged Diva affects Explorers protected by Station Eismette because the action doesnt choose any opponent's character. The FAQ pasted, imho, doesnt says anything in the theme, only says that Azathoth Response (for example) doesnt work on them. Recurring to other card's games, it very usual this kind of effect that ignores inmunities not targeting anyone, but make the controller choose.



#10 .Zephyr.

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:41 PM

 Ok maybe i'll explain my line of thought:

Immune means character is resistant to some kind of effect. FAQ describes two common types of effects: choosing a specyfic character and effect affecting more than one character that does not use targeting. Those are two types of effects in CoC. In both cases immune card is not affected.

There are cards that force other player to choose a character. For me they seem to still be targeting the character and the character is still immune to effect so he cant be targeted. The only difference is who makes the choice.

What you're saying is that because other player was chosen, and then he rather than the one that played the card chooses the character, its suddenly not targeted effect and is not described in the FAQ (even though this player has to choose a character), it is also not an effect that affects a group of characters  - i kinda see this point, but at the same time this doesn't make sense to me, but maybe that's how this game works.

(and if it does work this way i think it should be stated in Immune FAQ section, as its far from intuitive; just one statement that immunity protects only from certain types of effects, and there are effects that immunity doesn't protect from with an example of such effect type)

[edit]

Hmm in the whole card pool there are:

 - 5 cards with immune to polar events (4 characters, 1 attachment granting it)

 - 3 cards granting triggered effects immunity (2 characters, 1 location were discussing)

I see how this ruling might be key when fighting The Claret Knight, so maybe its intended to have some way of affecting this guy. But if so it would be nice to put it in FAQ. Immunity seems to be the mechanic that was pretty useless in CoC, but MU pack makes it much more important, so maybe my confusion is due to lack of familiarity with this type of protection.



#11 dboeren

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 02:35 AM

Even though they don't use that keyword, Invulnerablity is effectively "immunity to wounds" and Terror/Willpower are "immunity to insanity".

I can definitely see how Immunity is un under-used mechanic right now and it would be interesting to see it make more of a difference in the game.  Not to be over-used, but at least sometimes run into situations where you're thinking "Man, I'd really like to play my event to deal with this guy but he's got immunity so I need another plan".



#12 Penfold

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 07:06 AM

 Ask yourself the relevant questions…

Q: What does Eismitte grant?
A: Immunity from characters triggered abilities.

Q: What type of card is Deranged Diva?
A: A character.

Q: Is her ability a triggered effect?
A: Yes.

Q: Are Explorer and Scientist characters immune to that triggered effect?
A: Yes.

Targeting has little to do with it. Her effect, a triggered character ability, is creating the change in the effect that would otherwise be resolving on those characters… which they are clearly immune to. Because the chosen player is targeting the character and you cannot target an illegal character, the Miska player will need to choose another character if able. IF not then the effect fizzles.



#13 marcoa.ramirez@gmail.com

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 08:51 AM

Penfold said:

.

Q: What type of card is Deranged Diva?
A: A character.

It isn't correct, Deranged Diva target a player, I send this ask to FFG.

 

Regards,



#14 jhaelen

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 08:29 PM

marcoa.ramirez@gmail.com said:

 

It isn't correct, Deranged Diva target a player, I send this ask to FFG.

Thanks for sending the question to FFG. Could you please post the complete question and answer, though?

Often the complete answer reveals additional interesting insights into similar rule questions.



#15 AUCodeMonkey

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 09:07 AM

Penfold said:

 Ask yourself the relevant questions…

Q: What does Eismitte grant?
A: Immunity from characters triggered abilities.

And that's where I think it's fuzzy. The wording has typically been "cannot be the target of" instead of "immune to." If you interpret as "cannot be the target of" then you get to the same result that I did. If you take it as written (which I believe to be incredibly overpowered) then you're absolutely right, Penfold.



#16 Penfold

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:09 PM

 But immune is covered in the FAQ. Why is this a question. It clearly states that  a character with immunity cannot be targeted nor can they have an effect resolve on them. Done deal. There is simply no way to argue anything about that,it is very clear and very concise. Heh. For once. :P

The only question I had in my mind was whether or not the owner of the explorers or scientists would have to choose someone else and upon reading section 2.32I cannot come up with an argument that lets the owner get away with cheating out of it. Like when a character has willpower, it cannot be made to go insane so if someone else can, they must be chosen. This is the part I'm not 100% sure on, saym90%,  but it doesn't matter either way in regards to the question at hand, we know Eismitte protects scientists and explorers from Deranged Divas effect. I'll shoot Damon an email and ask about the being forced to choose someone else to go insane.

And immunity is strong, but we've mostly seen characters with singular immunity, rather than blanket immunity. You just got to hit thos characters the old fashion way or with a different kind of effect. It is the "Immune to triggered effects" cards that you have to deal withthat are seriously powerful.

And even then there are still game mechanics that get rid of them.



#17 AUCodeMonkey

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:40 AM

It was originally a question because I was angry that I couldn't do something against my wife's new deck. Competitive drive is a fierce, two-headed companion :-P

I unfortunately have to agree with you though, Penfold, about blanket immunity. The problem I'm going up against now is that some factions are less equipped to deal with location removal than others. Hopefully this doesn't drive the meta to be nerds vs. anti-nerds…



#18 marcoa.ramirez@gmail.com

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:58 AM

Hi,

   From Damon Stone

 

 

Short Answer:
The immunity prevents effects of that type from targeting AND/OR resolving on that card.

Long Answer:
Deranged Diva is a character and her effect is therefore a character ability. She may not use her ability to affect Explorer or Scientist characters with Station Eismette. It doesn't matter that her controller is not the one choosing the characters because it is her effect that causes the other player to target the character. Immunity prevents targeting, in any way, due to that kind of effect. The non-targeted type of effects still could not resolve on a character immune to that type of effect, so even if the targeting issue was true, it would still have no effect on a character with that type of immunity.

Where the difference matters for this is that the controller of Station Eismitte cannot target his own Explorer or Scientist characters with Deranged Diva's ability, but they must choose someone to target if able. The effect only fizzles if there is no other legal target.



#19 .Zephyr.

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:32 AM

Sacrifice effects, like from Cthulhu character also count?
(just making sure)

So the only way to get rid of The Claret Knight is passive effect, blanking his box (but not using triggered ability) and during a story struggle.
(this guy is going to be quite irritating)

hmm… maybe take controll and then pay sacrifice as a cost… he can be sacrificed as a cost right? its not effect then?



#20 Yipe

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 06:25 AM

Here's another question regarding Station Eismette:

Are characters protected by Station Eismette immune to Paul LeMond's triggered ability?

"Action:  Pay 1 to choose a character.  Until the end of the phase, Paul LeMond gains all of that character's printed icons."

We ruled (temporarily) that Paul LeMond could not copy the icons of a character protected by Station Eismette as he has to choose a target, even though the effect is resolving on Paul LeMond.

What do you think?






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